At the end of a previous thread, (which started with a discussion about
Isaac Newton's arms: "Two Shinbones in Saltire") George Lucki made a few
interesting comments about Polish heraldry in general and Nicolaus
Copernicus (Mikolaj Kopernik, 1473-1543) in particular. He directed us to
Kopernik's "Hausmark" ("gmerki" in Polish) which is shown at
http://www.akromer.republika.pl/herbarz_gmerki_tor.html.

Although a housemark is often displayed on a shield, George was quick to
point out that it's not a proper coat-of-arms. He also questioned my
attribution to Kopernik of the so-called "Jastrzebiec shield", which I am
still [tentatively] displaying as Kopernik's proper coat-of-arm at my own
site: www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#copernicus (along with George's
find, linked to its source, because this was definitely too good to pass
up).

As I previously stated, the same attribution is made by Arnaud Bunel at:
http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Armoriaux/Paris/XVI_2.htm#7

Now, I've also found the following entry in Rietsap, which may have
inspired
Bunel:
"Kopernij ou Copernic : Les armes de Jastrzembiec."
It's unlikely that Rietstap would ever have stated "ou Copernic" if he did
not have the famous Polish thinker in mind...

Other Internet "sources" like the following ones may be less convincing,
because they are solely based on a surname, which is not quite enough to
positively establish an affiliation:..
http://www.polishroots.org/herbarz/jastrzebiec.htm ("Koperni")
http://www.republika.pl/budni/nazwiska.htm ("Koperni")
http://www.pgsa.org/herbarzJ.htm ("Koperni")
etc.

Of course, for all we know, Rietstap himself could have been wrong and
Bunel's only source could have been Rietstap... So, if anybody has a
comment
and/or something more definite about Kopernik's actual arms, I'd like to
hear about that (and George said he would too)...

I am sure this issue could be settled... Please help.

Gerard P. Michon, Ph.D.
www.numericana.com/arms

Dear Gerard,
I can help a bit further. The Koperni h. Jastrzebiec family is a
completely
unrelated petty noble family originally hailing from Sandomierz (a
completely different part of the country) - no connection whatsoever with
Mikolaj Kopernik and likely an understandable mistake in Rietstap. The
sources you provvided from the internet are all drawing from Niesiecki's
armorial which is considered quite reliable. We are dealing with Koperni
rather than Kopernik.

I have checked a number of comprehensive Polish armorials - Boniecki,
Uruski, Niesiecki, Gajl, Leszczyc, and several others and there is no
indication that he was armigerous. Biographical sketches typically mention
his burgher roots (and patrician families in Poland did not often bear
arms).
Kind regards, George Lucki

"Gerard Michon" <g.michon@delete.up.to.dash-att.net> wrote in message
news:P_CLc.120674$OB3.47023@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
At the end of a previous thread, (which started with a discussion about
Isaac Newton's arms: "Two Shinbones in Saltire") George Lucki made a few
interesting comments about Polish heraldry in general and Nicolaus
Copernicus (Mikolaj Kopernik, 1473-1543) in particular. He directed us
to
Kopernik's "Hausmark" ("gmerki" in Polish) which is shown at
http://www.akromer.republika.pl/herbarz_gmerki_tor.html.

Although a housemark is often displayed on a shield, George was quick to
point out that it's not a proper coat-of-arms. He also questioned my
attribution to Kopernik of the so-called "Jastrzebiec shield", which I
am
still [tentatively] displaying as Kopernik's proper coat-of-arm at my
own
site: www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#copernicus (along with George's
find, linked to its source, because this was definitely too good to pass
up).

As I previously stated, the same attribution is made by Arnaud Bunel at:
http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Armoriaux/Paris/XVI_2.htm#7

Now, I've also found the following entry in Rietsap, which may have
inspired
Bunel:
"Kopernij ou Copernic : Les armes de Jastrzembiec."
It's unlikely that Rietstap would ever have stated "ou Copernic" if he
did
not have the famous Polish thinker in mind...

Other Internet "sources" like the following ones may be less convincing,
because they are solely based on a surname, which is not quite enough to
positively establish an affiliation:..
http://www.polishroots.org/herbarz/jastrzebiec.htm ("Koperni")
http://www.republika.pl/budni/nazwiska.htm ("Koperni")
http://www.pgsa.org/herbarzJ.htm ("Koperni")
etc.

Of course, for all we know, Rietstap himself could have been wrong and
Bunel's only source could have been Rietstap... So, if anybody has a
comment
and/or something more definite about Kopernik's actual arms, I'd like to
hear about that (and George said he would too)...

I am sure this issue could be settled... Please help.

Gerard P. Michon, Ph.D.
www.numericana.com/arms

Thanks for the additional information, George.

This seems quite convincing and I am inclined to update the Kopernik entry
accordingly pretty soon (with a short comment like: "unrelated to the
Koperni family from Sandomierz, who bore Jastrzebiec arms", in order to
help
people who might have been misled like I was).

I'll just leave the entry alone for a couple of days, though, so it can be
seen by anybody else who might want to contribute to this thread while
it's
still "live"...

Best regards,

Gerard P. Michon, Ph.D.
www.numericana.com/arms


"George Lucki" wrote in message news:81JLc.78303$od7.70972@pd7tw3no...
Dear Gerard,
I can help a bit further. The Koperni h. Jastrzebiec family is a
completely
unrelated petty noble family originally hailing from Sandomierz (a
completely different part of the country) - no connection whatsoever
with
Mikolaj Kopernik and likely an understandable mistake in Rietstap. The
sources you provvided from the internet are all drawing from Niesiecki's
armorial which is considered quite reliable. We are dealing with Koperni
rather than Kopernik.

I have checked a number of comprehensive Polish armorials - Boniecki,
Uruski, Niesiecki, Gajl, Leszczyc, and several others and there is no
indication that he was armigerous. Biographical sketches typically
mention
his burgher roots (and patrician families in Poland did not often bear
arms).
Kind regards, George Lucki

Well, George Lucki gets the last word on Copernicus...
The entry at www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#copernicus has been updated
to reflect the information he supplied (as acknowledged at the bottom of the
page).

I am still looking for help about a number of scientists whose heraldic
status is listed as either "unknown" (question mark shield) or "uncertain"
(white background) on that same page.

At last count, I am listing 100 coat-fo-arms for 110 different scientists
[some share the same arms] including a wild guess for Roger Bacon but
EXCLUDING an even wilder guess for Fibonacci (and NOT counting the
traditional "Sable, a sun Or" for St. Thomas Aquinas).

Here's my shortlist of 31 other scientists for which heraldic information
would be most appreciated,
in chronological order of birth:


- Sir James Ivory (1765-1842) Scottish

- Sir William Rowan Hamilton (1805-1865) Irish of Scottish descent *** MOST
WANTED

I am still looking for help about a number of scientists whose heraldic
status is listed as either "unknown" (question mark shield) or "uncertain"
- Girolamo Cardano (1501-1514) Italian [confirmation needed]

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 01:40:29 GMT, "Gerard Michon"
g.michon@delete.up.to.dash-att.net> wrote:

Well, George Lucki gets the last word on Copernicus...
The entry at www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#copernicus has been
updated
to reflect the information he supplied (as acknowledged at the bottom of
the
page).

I am still looking for help about a number of scientists whose heraldic
status is listed as either "unknown" (question mark shield) or
"uncertain"
(white background) on that same page.

At last count, I am listing 100 coat-fo-arms for 110 different scientists
[some share the same arms] including a wild guess for Roger Bacon but
EXCLUDING an even wilder guess for Fibonacci (and NOT counting the
traditional "Sable, a sun Or" for St. Thomas Aquinas).

Here's my shortlist of 31 other scientists for which heraldic information
would be most appreciated,
in chronological order of birth:


- Sir James Ivory (1765-1842) Scottish

Sir James was the son of James Ivory, clockmaker, of Dundee by his
first wife, Jean Brown. Sir James died unmarried and did not have arms
(well, did not have arms matriculated at Lyon Court anyway).

Neither did his half-nephew James, Hon Lord Ivory (1792-1866) who was
a Lord of Judiciary in Scotland with the judicial title of Lord Ivory.

The first grant of arms to the family was to Basil Gerritsen Ivory of
Binny (1901-1973), gt-gt-grandson of Hon Lord Ivory who was granted
the following on 22nd July 1935.

Gules an elephant passant Or tusked Argent on a chief engrailed Ermine
a pair of arrows in saltire points downwards Proper feathered of the
field.

James

James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 01:40:29 GMT, "Gerard Michon"
g.michon@delete.up.to.dash-att.net> wrote:

- Sir William Rowan Hamilton (1805-1865) Irish of Scottish descent ***
MOST
WANTED

You might have a look at
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/hamilton/hamilton1.html and the files linked
from there (up to hamilton20.html, at least), which give all the
descendant of the 13th century Gilbert de Hamilton. He is not in files
1, 2, 3, 4, 17 or 20. If he does belong to a branch of this family, it
ought not to be too difficult to find the arms.

--
Don Aitken

Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".

"Gerard Michon" <g.michon@delete.up.to.dash-att.net> wrote in message
news:<hcEMc.319259$Gx4.284465@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
I am still looking for help about a number of scientists whose heraldic
status is listed as either "unknown" (question mark shield) or
"uncertain"
- Girolamo Cardano (1501-1514) Italian [confirmation needed]

In Italian: "D'oro, al castello di rosso aperto e finestrato del
campo, torricellato di tre pezzi; i due laterali di rosso, quello di
mezzo di nero; col capo cucito d'oro, caricato di un'aquila di nero
coronata del campo."
(Source: G. B. di Crollalanza, "Dizionario Storico-Blasonico delle
Famiglie Nobili e Notabili Italiane Estinte e Fiorenti", 1886, Pisa,
volume I, p. 235).

The dates, I believe, should read 24.ix.1501 - 21.ix.1576.

Regards,

Cillian Roberto Fani Ó Broin

Swedenborg was a prominent member of the House of Nobles.

--
Will Linden wlinden@panix.com
http://www.ecben.net/
Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y

P.S.: I am also sure that many 16-17th century scientists in Prague,
including Tycho de Brahe and Jan (Johannes) Marcus Marci used
coats-of-arms (I am not so sure if also Johannes Kepler was granted a
coat of arms). J.J.