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Van Aaken + Lydiard...

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EDWARD EDMONDS...
Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:42 am
Guest
I would interested in what would the results would be if instead of
Lydiard's aerobic base building you did Aaken's and then topped off the
cake with ALL of Lydiards final phases, especially the structured hill
resistance phase, I think most people these days when following the
Lydiard schedules except for maybe the die hard Lydiard geeks, skip the
hill resistance phase and instead run a lot of hilly courses during base
building as a replacement for that work which I think can sometimes work
against you depending on how hilly the course is and how far over the
aerobic threshold you go. (I have a tendency to think that out of all
Lydiard's phases the hill resistance phase is the most crucial.)

I was planning on running as usual till the end of December then doing
the final Lydiard phases starting on the 1st of January which would last
for 3 months then doing a small series of 5k's and 10k's within the
first 6 months of the year to see where I'm at and then doing a half or
full marathon in the later part of the year to see how my 5 and 10k
times are translating over to my marathon times. Usually this is a good
way to see how aerobically fit you are vs. how aerobically fit you think
you are.

Last night I went out on the trails and using the MAF 180 formula which
is 180 minus your age, mine is 154, I strapped that piece of crap heart
rate monitor on and kept my heart rate below 154 for about an hour and
15 minutes, I felt really good afterward, I felt like it was a very
effective workout, the kind of workout where when your done you kind of
smile to yourself and you're like... all hell yeah!

Along the way I found some kinks in my form which slow running tends to
expose a little more so it was effective in the learning sense as well.
I think for the rest of the year I'm going to aim to stay below that
heart rate for my daily sessions to top of my aerobic tank.

Tomorrow or Sunday I'll be doing a 26-27 mile training run with my wife
and I'm going to keep it below 154 the duration and see how that feels
in the following days to decide for sure if I want to finish out the
year with that type of conditioning. Ideally from what I've read so far
you'd want to stick to low heart rate training for a bit longer but I've
been base building for a year and 9 months now and it's time to put the
icing on the cake.

The good news is that I just found a soft strap heart rate monitor, so
I'm hoping that will stick to my rib cage much better instead of choking
me to death. Smile
 
EDWARD EDMONDS...
Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:52 pm
Guest
On 11/6/2009 4:42 PM, EDWARD EDMONDS wrote:
Quote:
I would interested in what would the results would be if instead of
Lydiard's aerobic base building you did Aaken's and then topped off the
cake with ALL of Lydiards final phases, especially the structured hill
resistance phase, I think most people these days when following the
Lydiard schedules except for maybe the die hard Lydiard geeks, skip the
hill resistance phase and instead run a lot of hilly courses during base
building as a replacement for that work which I think can sometimes work
against you depending on how hilly the course is and how far over the
aerobic threshold you go. (I have a tendency to think that out of all
Lydiard's phases the hill resistance phase is the most crucial.)

I was planning on running as usual till the end of December then doing
the final Lydiard phases starting on the 1st of January which would last
for 3 months then doing a small series of 5k's and 10k's within the
first 6 months of the year to see where I'm at and then doing a half or
full marathon in the later part of the year to see how my 5 and 10k
times are translating over to my marathon times. Usually this is a good
way to see how aerobically fit you are vs. how aerobically fit you think
you are.

Last night I went out on the trails and using the MAF 180 formula which
is 180 minus your age, mine is 154, I strapped that piece of crap heart
rate monitor on and kept my heart rate below 154 for about an hour and
15 minutes, I felt really good afterward, I felt like it was a very
effective workout, the kind of workout where when your done you kind of
smile to yourself and you're like... all hell yeah!

Along the way I found some kinks in my form which slow running tends to
expose a little more so it was effective in the learning sense as well.
I think for the rest of the year I'm going to aim to stay below that
heart rate for my daily sessions to top of my aerobic tank.

Tomorrow or Sunday I'll be doing a 26-27 mile training run with my wife
and I'm going to keep it below 154 the duration and see how that feels
in the following days to decide for sure if I want to finish out the
year with that type of conditioning. Ideally from what I've read so far
you'd want to stick to low heart rate training for a bit longer but I've
been base building for a year and 9 months now and it's time to put the
icing on the cake.

The good news is that I just found a soft strap heart rate monitor, so
I'm hoping that will stick to my rib cage much better instead of choking
me to death. Smile

Anyway so I've been thinking about what Lydiard had to say about base
building and comparing to them to Aaken, what sticks out the most in my
mind is that while Lydiard wasn't a fan of LSD's, his guys while they
were doing 100 miles a week at their best aerobic efforts were also in
addition to that doing a lot of supplementary miles, and I'd guess they
were at alot lower heart rates. Clearly there is something to training
at lower heart rates of some significance whether you call them recovery
miles or whatever there is definitely a training effect.

I have some ideas as to why this is, but I'll need to read Aaken's book
before I could say for sure, but basically I like to think of the heart
as a engine, once you get the engine up to full speed, say on a flat
road with no resistance you could probably stop a few of the cylinders
and it would be able to maintain the speed, but if you went up a hill
that would require some torque which 1 or 2 cylinders would have a hard
time providing in other words you'd have to cross into the anaerobic
zone the "red line" and risk over heating the engine just to make it
over the hill with out slowing. I think what training at lower heart
rates does is provide the extra cylinders to not only cruise at high
speeds aerobically but to also provide that torque to get over hills
fairly aerobically instead of relying completely on the other energy
systems which are less efficient then the aerobic system when things get
though.

So whether Lydiard knew of the true benefits of those "supplementary"
miles or as some like to call them "junk miles" we'll probably never
know, but he did say in his book that adding supplementary miles will
give you even better results. So clearly he knew there was some benefit
to them.
 
pithydoug...
Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:20 pm
Guest
On Nov 6, 12:52 pm, EDWARD EDMONDS <edward.edmo... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
On 11/6/2009 4:42 PM, EDWARD EDMONDS wrote:



I would interested in what would the results would be if instead of
Lydiard's aerobic base building you did Aaken's and then topped off the
cake with ALL of Lydiards final phases,

Why not mix in Daniels, Glover, Pfitzinger, etc and set up a monstrous
menu. One from column A two from column B. If your looking into
Lydiard you may wnat to take a look at Keith Livingstone's 'Healthy
Intelligent Training." Lydiard was hazy in some of his written stuff
so this book was written to clear up the haze. I have the book but
have yet to get passed page 40. So little time to read.

In general I like the direction you are taking in that a collage may
be your answer. Nothing says that "your" answer can't be a mixture.

I remember 20 some years ago doing something similar for marathons. I
ended up with blend of 3-4 different programs. While there are
similarities with all of them, there are enough differences to provide
choice bur sometimes with choice comes confusion.


Good luck with your titling Mr. Quixote! ;)

Squire - Sancho Panza
 
D Stumpus...
Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:56 pm
Guest
"pithydoug" <dfreese at (no spam) hvc.rr.com> wrote

Quote:
Stretching is what ended my Achilles problems forever (or for the last 6
years or so)
I find the standing-backward-on-the-stairtread and
letting-the-heel-sink-down method works best.

Anecdotal. A recent running acquaintance came to me for some running
help. A fellow 60 yo with too much macho and not enough common sense.

The old hurry up to run fast syndrom. He recently retired but had been
running on and off for many years albeit with less vigor. After we
finished a run he stood on a curb doing the heel stretch. I suggested
and even showed him a few other stretches that would do the same with
less stress He ignored the suggestion and said he had been doing it
for years. He is now in cam boot and will be for many weeks. He had
finished a run and felt tight in the achilles area and decided to give
it an extra stretch. After all, if a little good, more is better.

Well, we're all different, I guess. I know I don't push it, just to the
point that it starts feeling good.

I forgot to note a couple of things:

a) that I start with a knee-bent Achilles stretch, so that's the "warm up"
for the bigger one. Doing just the regular stretch didn't solve my problem.

b) I also don't stretch immediately after a run, I wait at least 12 hours.
I don't know if that's good or bad, but it works for me.

Quote:
As a small sidebar, it is usually the calf muscles that have the
initial problem which pull up on the Achilles making the Achilles

appear to be the problem.

That is the major point, and reading that years ago in the ultra group is
what made me experiment and discover what worked for me.

Finally, going all out on uphill has caused me more than a couple of times
to injure a hamstring or Achilles, so I go hard, but not too hard on uphills
in training, and I stop immediately at the first hint of a twinge.
 
 
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