Full disclosure: For whatever it's worth, I have a porthole frame from
one wreck (found loose off the wreck) and an iron spike from another
(likewise).  I have seen but never disturbed human remains, and cannot
think of a reason I ever would, and I have yet to cut anything off a
wreck.  But if I found something I thought worth saving inside a WWII
salt water wreck, I'd very possibly bring it up if I could, as the sea
won't wait and whatever bit of history it represents will be
irretrievably lost to everyone, forever, in not too many years.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/2489763/Looters-plunder-wrecks-in-the-graveyard-of-the-Atlantic.html

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:51:08 -0800 (PST), Greg Mossman
moss... at (no spam) qnet.com> wrote in rec.scuba:





On Nov 2, 7:49 pm, JRE <noth... at (no spam) nowhere.invalid> wrote:

Full disclosure: For whatever it's worth, I have a porthole frame from
one wreck (found loose off the wreck) and an iron spike from another
(likewise).  I have seen but never disturbed human remains, and cannot
think of a reason I ever would, and I have yet to cut anything off a
wreck.  But if I found something I thought worth saving inside a WWII
salt water wreck, I'd very possibly bring it up if I could, as the sea
won't wait and whatever bit of history it represents will be
irretrievably lost to everyone, forever, in not too many years.

Yet I just posted another article about people going around wrecks in
Palau removing human remains.  To each his own.  Me, if I found human
remains in a wreck, I'd probably snag a bone when no one else was
looking, take it home, and nail it on the wall next to my snorkel.
One of my fondest memories of diving Truk Lagoon was when I got to
touch a real live bone, but there was just one there and it would have
been obvious had I pocketed it.  But not every shares my delicate
scruples - it's probably not there anymore.

I saw the soapified remains of a crewman in the engine room of the
Kamloops but I didn't touch him.  I was told that those bodies are the
consistency of glue and that I'd get them "stuck to me" if I did touch
them.  He looked much more solid to me but I still didn't want to
disturb him in any way.  It's been his last resting place for 82 years
and I would think he'd want to be left alone.

On Nov 2, 7:49 pm, JRE <noth... at (no spam) nowhere.invalid> wrote:

Full disclosure: For whatever it's worth, I have a porthole frame from
one wreck (found loose off the wreck) and an iron spike from another
(likewise).  I have seen but never disturbed human remains, and cannot
think of a reason I ever would, and I have yet to cut anything off a
wreck.  But if I found something I thought worth saving inside a WWII
salt water wreck, I'd very possibly bring it up if I could, as the sea
won't wait and whatever bit of history it represents will be
irretrievably lost to everyone, forever, in not too many years.

Yet I just posted another article about people going around wrecks in
Palau removing human remains. To each his own. Me, if I found human
remains in a wreck, I'd probably snag a bone when no one else was
looking, take it home, and nail it on the wall next to my snorkel.
One of my fondest memories of diving Truk Lagoon was when I got to
touch a real live bone, but there was just one there and it would have
been obvious had I pocketed it. But not every shares my delicate
scruples - it's probably not there anymore.

Some writers, apparently including the one who wrote that article, seem
to have the misguided illusion that WWII wrecks are somehow--magically,
I suppose--not deteriorating into oblivion in the corrosive salt water
in which they have been immersed for over half a century.

I'm all for leaving human remains alone. I see no harm though in taking
artifacts from these wrecks to share with others and help preserve the
memory of what happened out there.

It was an artifact that was recovered
that led to the correct identification of some of the wrecks. I don't
hear anyone bitching about the recovery of the bell from the Edmund
Fitzgerald.

In article <hco9aa$tgu$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
nothing at (no spam) nowhere.invalid says...

Some writers, apparently including the one who wrote that article, seem
to have the misguided illusion that WWII wrecks are somehow--magically,
I suppose--not deteriorating into oblivion in the corrosive salt water
in which they have been immersed for over half a century.


This is pretty much non news. Where were these NOAA archaeologists in
the 70's and 80's, when most of the artifact removal took place? If it
were up to the NOAA guys, no one but them would be allowed near these
wrecks, and they would be purposely covered with sand until NOAA gets
around to looking at them, which would be never. Archaeologists have
just about nothing to learn about WWII era ships, and really have no
reason to study them. I suspect that some of this may be sour grapes
over the recent reidentification of some of the wrecks by a private
group.

I'm all for leaving human remains alone. I see no harm though in taking
artifacts from these wrecks to share with others and help preserve the
memory of what happened out there. It was an artifact that was recovered
that led to the correct identification of some of the wrecks. I don't
hear anyone bitching about the recovery of the bell from the Edmund
Fitzgerald.

al

"Al Wells" <al.wells at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2559fd3312d2ff9a989685 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...


I'm all for leaving human remains alone. I see no harm though in taking
artifacts from these wrecks to share with others and help preserve the
memory of what happened out there.


1) "to share with others" I agree with. Artifacts should be placed into the
hands of a museum or other repository, with the name of the diver doing the
recovery, date, time and location information


It was an artifact that was recovered
that led to the correct identification of some of the wrecks. I don't
hear anyone bitching about the recovery of the bell from the Edmund
Fitzgerald.


That was done by the Navy with permission of the families and placed on
public display.

Hardly like kyping human remains from a war grave to be hidden away in a
garage or hung over the mantle for bragging rights.


Most of the human remains from war graves are in university stashes, not

Most of the human remains from war graves are in university stashes, not
garages.

Most of the human remains from war graves are in university stashes, not
garages.

Scott wrote:
"El Stroko Guapo" <omg... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:TpSdnS2068H9-m3XnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d at (no spam) earthlink.com...

Most of the human remains from war graves are in university stashes, not
garages.

Bullshit.

The Smithsonian Institution has 18,600. No one else will disclose how
many bodies they have stashed away, not even under the
federally-mandated NAGPRA inventory, but the big archeology universities
in the US must have at least 200,000 maybe a half-million. Then there's
all the looters-for-science in Mexico, Germany, UK, figure another
half-million.

If you went to bury all the university and museum corpses you'd run out
of space.

"dechucka" <vo... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:l_udnRpTYP4WEm3XnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d at (no spam) westnet.com.au...







"Greg Mossman" <moss... at (no spam) qnet.com> wrote in message
news:95f73841-06d7-4a58-ab1e-4ac0cba1b196 at (no spam) y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com....
On Nov 3, 5:42 am, John Hanson <jhan... at (no spam) northernlinks.com> wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:51:08 -0800 (PST), Greg Mossman
moss... at (no spam) qnet.com> wrote in rec.scuba:

On Nov 2, 7:49 pm, JRE <noth... at (no spam) nowhere.invalid> wrote:

Full disclosure: For whatever it's worth, I have a porthole frame from
one wreck (found loose off the wreck) and an iron spike from another
(likewise). I have seen but never disturbed human remains, and cannot
think of a reason I ever would, and I have yet to cut anything off a
wreck. But if I found something I thought worth saving inside a WWII
salt water wreck, I'd very possibly bring it up if I could, as the sea
won't wait and whatever bit of history it represents will be
irretrievably lost to everyone, forever, in not too many years.

Yet I just posted another article about people going around wrecks in
Palau removing human remains. To each his own. Me, if I found human
remains in a wreck, I'd probably snag a bone when no one else was
looking, take it home, and nail it on the wall next to my snorkel.
One of my fondest memories of diving Truk Lagoon was when I got to
touch a real live bone, but there was just one there and it would have
been obvious had I pocketed it. But not every shares my delicate
scruples - it's probably not there anymore.

I saw the soapified remains of a crewman in the engine room of the
Kamloops but I didn't touch him. I was told that those bodies are the
consistency of glue and that I'd get them "stuck to me" if I did touch
them. He looked much more solid to me but I still didn't want to
disturb him in any way. It's been his last resting place for 82 years
and I would think he'd want to be left alone.

Yuck.  Fortunately salt water (and salt water fishies) makes short
work out of dead flesh.  I don't believe there's any soul left in the
skeleton, which is why I have no problem touching bones, but
"soapified remains" that stick to you are another story entirely.  On
the other hand, if there are any identifying features on your crewman,
perhaps he has descendants that would be interested in his location.

On a somewhat related incident, when we were in French Polynesia
wading in the warm shallow waters off a motu near Taha'a, I began
picking up various sea cucumbers to show off to Janna and my new
friends.  To my surprise, one of them started squirting a white
viscous substance as if I had just performed a stellar hand job on
it.  Even worse than my embarrassment at making the damn thing squirt,
it turned out the viscous stuff, that got all over my hands,
immediately stuck to my skin and was near impossible to get off (I
scraped my hands so hard I drew blood in several places).  Later on,
thinking the ordeal over, I accidentally stepped on another one and
got the nasty stuff on my bare foot.  Apparently the stuff is called
"cuvarian tubules".  If sticky crewman remains are anything like
cuvarian tubules, you're damn lucky you didn't poke at him.

============================================
don't get it anywhere near your eyes

further to my commentshttp://library.thinkquest.org/C007974/2_1scs.htm

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:51:08 -0800 (PST), Greg Mossman
moss... at (no spam) qnet.com> wrote in rec.scuba:





On Nov 2, 7:49 pm, JRE <noth... at (no spam) nowhere.invalid> wrote:

Full disclosure: For whatever it's worth, I have a porthole frame from
one wreck (found loose off the wreck) and an iron spike from another
(likewise). I have seen but never disturbed human remains, and cannot
think of a reason I ever would, and I have yet to cut anything off a
wreck. But if I found something I thought worth saving inside a WWII
salt water wreck, I'd very possibly bring it up if I could, as the sea
won't wait and whatever bit of history it represents will be
irretrievably lost to everyone, forever, in not too many years.

Yet I just posted another article about people going around wrecks in
Palau removing human remains. To each his own. Me, if I found human
remains in a wreck, I'd probably snag a bone when no one else was
looking, take it home, and nail it on the wall next to my snorkel.
One of my fondest memories of diving Truk Lagoon was when I got to
touch a real live bone, but there was just one there and it would have
been obvious had I pocketed it. But not every shares my delicate
scruples - it's probably not there anymore.

I saw the soapified remains of a crewman in the engine room of the
Kamloops but I didn't touch him. I was told that those bodies are the
consistency of glue and that I'd get them "stuck to me" if I did touch
them. He looked much more solid to me but I still didn't want to
disturb him in any way. It's been his last resting place for 82 years
and I would think he'd want to be left alone.

"El Stroko Guapo" <omgray at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:TpSdnS2068H9-m3XnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d at (no spam) earthlink.com...


Most of the human remains from war graves are in university stashes, not
garages.


Bullshit.