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| Stuart Wheaton... |
 Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:20 am |
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NRA bullseye pistol...
Second timed fire string,
Just prior to the targets turning, a shooter fires a premature shot.
He neatly slices the target in two... the targets turn, and since most
of his target is now on the floor, he saves his remaining 4 shots.
How do you handle the alibi?
As far as I can find, the rule book is mute on this, but maybe I just
missed that part.
It was a lousy string for the rest of us, sustained fire is tough when
you are laughing your ass off.
..
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| DT... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:09 pm |
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In article <hcep7f$19l$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net>, sdwheaton at (no spam) fuse.net says...
#NRA bullseye pistol...
#
#Second timed fire string,
#
#Just prior to the targets turning, a shooter fires a premature shot.
#
#He neatly slices the target in two... the targets turn, and since most
#of his target is now on the floor, he saves his remaining 4 shots.
#
#How do you handle the alibi?
#
#As far as I can find, the rule book is mute on this, but maybe I just
#missed that part.
#
#It was a lousy string for the rest of us, sustained fire is tough when
#you are laughing your ass off.
Disqualified for firing before the command to fire?
--
Dennis
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| Dale Alexander... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:09 pm |
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I would have been more impressed if he had "manned-up" and put the remaining
four shots in the upper half of the X-ring.
Dale Alexander
www.prgclub.org
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| ... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:09 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 30, 7:20 am, Stuart Wheaton <sdwhea... at (no spam) fuse.net> wrote:
# NRA bullseye pistol...
#
# Second timed fire string,
#
# Just prior to the targets turning, a shooter fires a premature shot.
#
# He neatly slices the target in two... the targets turn, and since most
# of his target is now on the floor, he saves his remaining 4 shots.
#
# How do you handle the alibi?
#
# As far as I can find, the rule book is mute on this, but maybe I just
# missed that part.
#
# It was a lousy string for the rest of us, sustained fire is tough when
# you are laughing your ass off.
# .
#
The way I learned it, it's a DQ for that string if you jump the
signal, you'd be down the value of 5 shots. No alibi allowed. You
might contact NRA HQ and ask their opinion. Don't remember seeing it
in the rule book myself. With some other types of matches, you'd be
slung out on your ass, totally DQ'd, a safety violation. I have read
of shots being disallowed if the target is turning while the bullet is
going through, they aren't circular. That's for guys playing for the
big time, though.
Stan
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| TimR... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:09 pm |
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On Oct 30, 9:20 am, Stuart Wheaton <sdwhea... at (no spam) fuse.net> wrote:
If he can do that on purpose I'm impressed.
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| Doug White... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:09 pm |
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# It was a lousy string for the rest of us, sustained fire is tough when
# you are laughing your ass off.
I'm not sure, but he certainly loses the shot that cut the paper. One
approach would be to give him an alibi string & score the combined
targets, minus the early shot. I think there is something in the rules
about it being an alibi if he doesn't have anything to shoot at (like a
target falls down when it turns).
Doug White
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| Mike Corey... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:38 am |
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The shooters score would be ZERO. An early shot, one that hits paper
before the target is fully exposed, and crosses more then one score
ring, gets counted as the lowest score. Since the lowest score his
bullet touched was outside the lowest score ring, his first shot would
be scored a zero. Since he didn't continue shooting, and didn't have an
excusable alibi, his score for that string is zero.
If the target fell off while turning before he shot, he would be allowed
a full five shot alibi. But since the target fell because of him, that
rule would not apply.
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| WILLIAM FOLEY... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:38 am |
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I believe rule 9.12 (a) "Interruption of Fire" covers this situation for all
the competitors except the early shooter.
(a) In timed or rapid fire when the firing of a string is interrupted by
some occurrence which renders it
impossible for one or more competitors to complete the string under the
conditions of the match, the Chief
Range Officer will proceed as follows. Without being permitted to examine
their targets, competitors in the
relay who have been so prevented from completing their strings will be asked
if they wish to refire or to
accept their score as fired. Targets will then be scored in the usual manner
for all competitors except
those who have elected to refire. Without being scored, the targets of such
competitors who have elected
to refire will be pasted or new targets substituted and a complete string
will be fired and scored. Reasons
authorizing this procedure are:
(1) failure to allow full time.
(2) failure of targets to operate properly or uniformly.
(3) failure of target to remain in position on frame or carrier.
(4) damage to target rendering impossible proper aiming or scoring
impossible.
(5) the appearance of some object in line of fire constituting a hazard.
(6) some incident involving a Range Officer or competitor on the firing
line.
(7) unintended moving of the target during fire.
Rule 14.5 "Early or Late Shots" would apply for the early shooter:
When a shot is fired early or late, that is, before or after the signal to
commence or
cease fire, when the required number of hits are visible on the face of the
target, the value of the highest hit will be
scored a miss. When fewer than the required number of hits are visible on
the target, the competitor will be scored
a miss for each shot not on the target, and those visible on the target will
be scored in the normal manner.
Just my opinion. At an official match (approved, regional, sectional,
registered, state or national championship) the early shooter would, in
fairness to the other competitors, need to suffer some scoring consequences.
If this is just a local friendly or practice match or league a more liberal
interpretation of the rules should apply (hang a new target, fire an alibi
string and score the low ten between the two targets). An example of
relaxed rules is our local indoor bullseye league we run in the Fall and the
Winter. We allow alibis for every target fired, not just one per match.
"Stuart Wheaton" <sdwheaton at (no spam) fuse.net> wrote in message
news:hcep7f$19l$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
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| Louis Boyd... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:39 am |
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I haven't shoot Bullseye for over ten years, but if my memory is correct
targets only turn on timed and rapid fire but they turn after the
command to commence fire. As long as he fired after the command it's the
shooter's problem if the target hadn't turned.
Personally I'd score each shot based on the best ring each bullet
touches as usual. If the "edge on" bullet cut the x-ring I'd give it a
10x, but but I'd require each of the other shots to be scored normally
for each bullet which went into either piece of the target and
even if he shot the piece of the target laying on the ground. Alibi?
Why? He still had a usable gun and a usable target.
I was at a match in a high wind when a target blew off one stand and
onto the side of the next stand. It was during the slow fire portion.
It happened before the shooters last shot and he had plenty of time.
Although the target was turned on it's back the black area was still
visible and the shooter decided to his last bullet. He put it in the
10 ring but from the back side of the paper.
It was only a practice match, but all agreed the shot should be counted.
No rules for that either.
I don't think alibis were ever intended to rectify a shooter's screw
ups. Where the bullets go on the shooters own target is what counts.
You don't get any points or alibi if you shoot an adjacent target or if
you miss your target or don't take the shots if you could. I've only
seen alibis given for a pistol which won't fire or for not having a
target to shoot, or possibly a sick or injured shooter.
But unless it was a championship match how it's scored doesn't matter much.
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| Stuart Wheaton... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:33 am |
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9.12(a)(4) probably applies to the cut target.
It looks like replace the target, shoot a 5 shot alibi, score the first
5 on the cut target as well as possible, drop the highest hole, and that
ought to do it.
It was definitely a 'friendly' match. We shoot a 900 pt. handicap club
match every weds. 3 NMC's with 22, 22 or cf, and revolver.
Pretty much anything anyone calls as an alibi is allowed, the more
skilled guys usually stay closer to the one alibi per match rules, but
the idea is to have fun.
Anybody interested in joining us in Cinci, drop me a line.
..
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| Larry Fishel... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:33 am |
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On Oct 31, 9:38 am, "WILLIAM FOLEY" <wf_fo... at (no spam) cox.net> wrote:
# I believe rule 9.12 (a) "Interruption of Fire" covers this situation for all
# the competitors except the early shooter.
#
# (a) In timed or rapid fire when the firing of a string is interrupted by
# some occurrence which renders it
# impossible for one or more competitors to complete the string under the
# conditions of the match
I've only shot in relatively friendly matches, but even there,
laughing at someone else's mistake would not be seriously considered
as making it impossible to complete the string. An early shot might
be, but only if the range officer deemed it a safety issue an stopped
the string.
# those who have elected to refire. Without being scored, the targets of such
# competitors who have elected
# to refire will be pasted or new targets substituted and a complete string
# will be fired and scored. Reasons
# authorizing this procedure are:
# (4) damage to target rendering impossible proper aiming or scoring
# impossible.
Hmmm... I would think that having most of the target missing could
reasonably be interpreted as making proper aiming impossible. This
rule doesn't specify anything about how or by whom it was damaged.
# Rule 14.5 "Early or Late Shots" would apply for the early shooter:
These two rules are not clearly reconcilable with each other, but it
would sound reasonable to score a miss for the early shot and give him
a 4 shot alibi string...or a 5 shot string and score the low 4 shots.
It's certainly not clearly required by the rules, but I could see a
judge/referee making that decision. I could also see him decide not to
hold up the match when the damage was the shooter's fault, but unless
there's another rule that addresses that, I could see someone
disputing it...
Just my thoughts (possibly distorted by root beer, Halloween candy and
lack of sleep.)
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| jaf... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:32 pm |
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Hi Stuart,
FYI: NRA rule books are available online here. http://www.nrahq.org/compete/nra-rule-books.asp
NRA bullseye completion is covered in the "Conventional Pistol" book.
William posted the relevant rule on "interruption of fire", but I don't agree that it would be applicable in this case.
My argument would be...
(3) failure of target to remain in position on frame or carrier.
The target is still in the correct position.
(4) damage to target rendering impossible proper aiming or scoring impossible.
In this case the shooter caused the problem not the range equipment or conditions (weather).
(Striking the target carrier is covered in rule 9.12(e))
I want to add that an early shot has to be a ruling of the range officer, if he/she can determine who shot early, if anyone.
Firing after the command "COMMENCE FIRING"" and before the target fully turns is NOT an early shot. See rule 14.5.
So the "early shot" ruling, if made, has to be applied prior to applying rule 9.12.
In any competition I've shot, shooting the target in half would be not allowed as an alibi.
It is not a "defective cartridge", "disabled pistol", or "malfunction" of the equipment under rule 10.9 & 10.0.
Those terms are defined in rules 9.3 thru 9.6.
Rule 10.9 covers "alibis" but uses the term "privileged to fire another..."
10.9 Procedure in Case of Defective Cartridge, Disabled Pistol in slow fire - If a cartridge fails to fire or a
pistol fails to function in slow fire the competitor may replace the unfired cartridge or clear the jam and continue
firing. Additional time may be allowed any competitor, equal to the time lost because of the defective cartridge,
disabled pistol or malfunction, if the Range Officer has been notified at the time of the malfunction. (For refiring
privileges 21 see Rule 9.14). It is not required that the Range Officer attempt to fire a cartridge before it is declared
defective. In case of malfunction where a pistol or revolver is disabled and must be replaced requiring a refire, the
competitor will call the Range Officer.
10.10 Procedure in Case of Defective Cartridge, Disabled Pistol or Malfunction in Timed and Rapid Fire
- Note: Rule 10.10(a) is to apply for all Regional and National Championships. Rule 10.10(b) may be used for
other tournaments provided tournament program clearly states that Rule 10.10(b) will apply for that tournament.
Otherwise 10.10(a) will apply.
(a) In the event of a defective cartridge (Rule 9.4), disabled pistol (Rule 9.5), or malfunction (Rule 9.6), before
a string is completed in timed or rapid fire, the competitor shall be privileged to fire another five shot string,
provided he assumes the "Ready" position and calls the Range Officer by holding up the non-shooting
hand at the end of the time period. The Range Officer will inspect the pistol , and may even ask that the
pistol be fired, if satisfied that there is a disabled pistol, defective cartridge, malfunction, or optical sight
failure, will determine the number of unfired cartridges remaining in the pistol or bullets that have failed to
leave the barrel. The competitor will then fire another complete five shot string on the same target. The
competitor may attempt to complete firing per Rule 10.11.
(b) If a cartridge fails to fire, or misfires, or a pistol fails to function in timed or rapid fire, the competitor will not
be allowed to refire the string. The competitor may attempt to complete firing per Rule 10.11.
According to rule 14.3(b) the shot would be counted as the lowest scoring ring touched by the bullet.
14.3 How to Score - A shot hole, the leaded edge of which comes in contact with the outside of the bullseye
or scoring rings of a target, is given the higher value (Fig. F). A scoring gauge will be used to determine the value
of close shots. The higher value will be allowed in those cases where the flange on the gauge touches the scoring
ring. No scoring gauge will be used unless the diameter of the scoring flange is within these limits:
...22 caliber .2225" - .2240"
...32 caliber .310" - .314"
9mm & 38Spl .355" - .359"
...40 caliber .397" - .401"
...44 caliber 426" - .430"
...45 caliber .450" - .454"
Devices other than scoring gauges may be used to assist in establishing the correct value of hits. These
devices are not to be inserted into the bullet hole and do not constitute a scoring gauge.
(a) In case of keyhole or tipped shots, the higher value is awarded if the leaded edge of the bullet hole
touches the scoring ring of higher value, even though the hole is elongated to the bullet's length rather
than being a circle of the bullet's diameter.
(b) In case of skid shots, the higher value is awarded if the leaded edge of the bullet hole touches the scoring
ring of higher value, except the value of a skid shot may not be more than one ring higher than the original
point of bullet contact with the target. The target shall be defined as the entire card or paper on which the
scoring rings are printed but shall not include the backing. When the original point of bullet contact is on
the target card, but outside the scoring rings, and the leaded edge of the bullet touches a scoring ring, it
will be given the value of the lowest scoring ring.
(c) When a bullet enters a target from the back side it will be scored as a miss.
You may want to email the NRA and ask this question. I'm sure it's been asked before.
I recall a "what's the rule" column was in the "Shooting Sports USA" magazine the NRA sends to registered shooters/members.
I did not see a question archive at http://www.nrapublications.org/ssusa/index.html
I don't see this as a black or white decision on which rule applies.
Just my opinion.
John
"Stuart Wheaton" <sdwheaton at (no spam) fuse.net> wrote in message news:hcep7f$19l$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
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| WILLIAM FOLEY... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:32 pm |
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"Louis Boyd" <boyd at (no spam) apt0.sao.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:hchelq$rtq$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
With turning targets a verbal command to fire is not given. The turning of
the targets is the commence fire command. Time is measured for the the
fully faced time, the time while the targets are moving is outside the 10 or
20 seconds allowed for firing. So technically all skidder shots on a
bullseye target or either late or early shots. I believe in order to
compensate for different turning target systems and to keep up the spirit of
competition the skidder scoring rules were developed. In international
shooting there is a maximum skidder length allowed on turning targets,
anything greater is scored a miss. See rule 8.1 & 14.3
I would have scored the (6) visible hits on the target, the (4) shots not
fired would be misses no alibi allowed for the early shooter. The skidder
would be scored a 5 (point of entry plus 1) per rule 14.3(b). A range
alibi might be allowed for the other competitors if the disruption did not
allow them to complete the string safely. If I was the match director and
if the shooter had fired on the target part laying on the ground I would
have given a verbal safety warning to the competitor. The outdoor range I
shoot at is designed for shots to be fired from the firing line and through
targets in proper target frames and into the earthen berm. Signs are posted
as such. Shooting at anything else, from anywhere else, runs the risk of
ricochets leaving the range, a very serious not good thing.
See Rule 14.3(c ) - When a bullet enters a target from the back side it will
be scored as a miss.
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