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| turby... |
 Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:12 pm |
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| Rob Kleinschmidt... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:44 pm |
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On Oct 28, 9:12 pm, turby <keens... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
Just caught part of it on TV. I really liked the tulip
bubble and the apple forests. I was aware of the
tulip bubble already but had never heard of the sad
period of tulip abuse that followed. |
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| turby... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:40 pm |
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On Oct 29, 11:52 am, Rob Kleinschmidt <Rkleinsch1216... at (no spam) aol.com>
wrote:
Quote: On Oct 29, 9:50 am, turby <keens... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 29, 10:07 am, Rob Kleinschmidt <Rkleinsch1216... at (no spam) aol.com
wrote:
On Oct 28, 9:57 pm, turby <keens... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 28, 10:44 pm, Rob Kleinschmidt <Rkleinsch1216... at (no spam) aol.com
wrote:
On Oct 28, 9:12 pm, turby <keens... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
This is bitchin:
http://www.pbs.org/thebotanyofdesire/
Just caught part of it on TV. I really liked the tulip
bubble and the apple forests. I was aware of the
tulip bubble already but had never heard of the sad
period of tulip abuse that followed.
A question - if seeds don't give you control over an apple's
properties, why not conserve Kazakhstani cuttings, too?
At a guess, the potential is still present in the seeds
but not necessarily turned on in each one when they
sprout. The whole monoculture critique was that cuttings
tended to narrow genetic diversity. Question is whether
the diversity gets lost when an apple is repeatedly
propagated by cuttings.
Yeah. They are definitely more interested in preserving all the
_potential_ attributes of the trees than any particular strain.
But if you want to go back and reproduce a known attribute, finding
the gene is like trying to find one leaf in an orchard, but if you had
a cutting, it's simple.
BTW, I wonder where I can score some of that newfangled hard cider...
Apples are the devil's fruit. You should repent and avoid
them in the future.
I'd heard that Europeans drank "small beer" instead of
water because of a fear of disease, the same way
Americans drank cider.
Don't know as anybody'd really connected stuff like
Typhoid or Cholera to bad water, but I guess an attack
of the drizzly shits isn't that hard to figure out. Anyway, it
makes a great excuse.
I totally missed the potato and marijuana segments. I'll
have to catch the rest of it. Really good program.
Among many other interesting bits...
Potatoes can produce so much caloric value in so little space that one
person can grow enough to live on, and they thrive in horrible
conditions. The Incas grew different varieties depending on the
microclimate, but the vast majority of production now is Russet
Burbank, because it produces fries that look good in ads. More
monoculture stuff.
The human body produces a chemical that is functionally identical to
THC. That is leading to developing drugs to spur memory _loss._ For
example, PTSD in war vets who have witnessed grotesque events. I'd
always thought of forgetfulness as poor memory, but it is a separate
attribute. The program did a good job of showing why pot growers are
some of the most advanced botanists around.
I have to get the book, but the imagery in the film was excellent. |
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| Rob Kleinschmidt... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:38 pm |
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On Oct 29, 4:40 pm, turby <keens... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote: Among many other interesting bits...
Potatoes can produce so much caloric value in so little space that one
person can grow enough to live on, and they thrive in horrible
conditions. The Incas grew different varieties depending on the
microclimate, but the vast majority of production now is Russet
Burbank, because it produces fries that look good in ads. More
monoculture stuff.
Q: What did the Irishman give his kids for Christmas ?
A: Toy potatoes. |
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| Chuck Rhode... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:50 pm |
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On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:57:22 -0700, turby wrote:
Quote: On Oct 28, 10:44Â pm, Rob Kleinschmidt <Rkleinsch1216... at (no spam) aol.com
wrote:
On Oct 28, 9:12Â pm, turby <keens... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
This is bitchin:
http://www.pbs.org/thebotanyofdesire/
Just caught part of it on TV. I really liked the tulip bubble and
the apple forests. I was aware of the tulip bubble already but had
never heard of the sad period of tulip abuse that followed.
A question - if seeds don't give you control over an apple's
properties, why not conserve Kazakhstani cuttings, too?
I missed the program (Darn it!), but, from what I've read, American
Land-Grant Colleges have been traipsing over to central Asia (notably
Russia) since the late 19th century to collect apple strains near
their prehistoric origin. (Cloning apples by grafting scionwood to
seedling rootstocks is one of a handful of arts that has been known
throughout history.) Several varieties have been favored with success
here:
o Lubsk Queen -- Medium to large fruit. Glistening white
porcelain-like skin with splashes and blushes of brightest pink and
rosy red. Firm, juicy, tart snow white flesh. Brisk, sprightly
flavor. One of some 350 Russian apples brought into the US by
Professor J. L. Budd of Iowa State Agricultural College and Charles
Gibb of Quebec between 1879 and 1885 in an attempt to find cold-hardy
varieties.
o Simerinko Reinette -- Medium to large fruit; sometimes obscurely
ribbed. Waxy coating forms when it gets much light. Exposed side tends
to turn pale pink. Crisp, tender, juicy, greenish yellow flesh. Sweet,
wine-like, tangy flavor. Stem is firmly attached. Precocious, abundant
bearer. Adapted to light or heavy soils. Highly drought resistant.
Developed by 19th century Russian horticulturist Platon F. Simirenko.
o Yellow Transparent -- Medium to large fruit with transparent pale
yellow skin. Crisp, very sweet, juicy, white flesh is very light in
texture and be readily solar-dried. When fully ripe, it has good, but
not high flavor. Tree is an upright, vigorous grower; bears very
young. Tends to bear heavily. Fruit size will be improved by early
thinning. Hardy to Zone 2-3. In the 1870s, settlers in Minnesota,
Michigan, and the Dakotas needed cold hardy apple trees, so the USDA
imported hundreds of Russian apple varieties. Among them was Yellow
Transparent, which was chosen not for its winter hardiness but because
of its earliness and good quality.
o Seed Savers Exchange, Inc. _Fruit, Berry and Nut Inventory_.
Ed. Kent Whealy. 3rd ed. Decorah, IA: Seed Savers Exchange, 2001.
I have several dwarf apple trees in my backyard. This year I had a
couple handfuls of apples from Fireside, Honeycrisp(tm), Sweet Sixteen
and Golden Russet and one apple each from Fameuse and Atlas. In all
six varieties bore for me this year. How many varieties can you buy
at the grocery?
Honeycrisp is a patented and trademarked variety from the University
of Minnesota. The source of the following quotes is a bit dated
because there are now many orchards in full production. Honeycrisp
has been in high demand for several years, and still commands a
premium price at retail even though no longer scarce. It has a
peculiar melon-like flavor and consistency.
Here are excerpts to show what a tenuous project developing a new
apple variety from scratch can be:
"The cross that produced Honeycrisp was made, according to
publications by the University of Minnesota, in 1960. As you've read
in my variety descriptions here (see Haralson), the cross happens at
blossom time in the spring, and then the apple would be harvested in
the fall, and the seeds from that apple would be planted the following
spring. And this would be times thousands, because they don't just do
one seed, of course. So by the spring of 1961, they would have been
only sprouts. And since nobody knew that one sprout would be any
better than the others, they would have been grown as seedling trees
until they produced apples, which would have taken some years. Let's
guess five years [sic], which would make it the fall of [1974] when
the first apples were harvested.
"That's the earliest they could have been calling it MN 1711, a very
low number that none of the sprouts could earn until they had borne
apples that had promise. Why? Because the numbers get too high if you
number every seedling. MN 1711 could have been MN 2,765,234 if they
had done that. They've been breeding by growing seedlings at the
University of Minnesota Research Center or its predecessors for a
nearly a century and a half. So they only put a low MN number on
varieties they care to evaluate over a period of time. Likewise, they
don't waste any names on apples until they're ready for release. If
they did, they'd have used up a few million names for varieties no one
would ever hear about. At Sponsel's Minnesota Harvest, we're still
growing MN 1014, MN 1403, MN 1505, MN 1606, MN 1622, MN 1661, MN 1691
and MN 1728 without names. They're pretty miserly with names over
there at the University, but they're excellent when they give one
out."
"So, if someone ate one in [1974], why did it take twenty-four years
[sic] before they let the rest of us know about it?
"Part of the answer is that it's imperative to watch a variety over a
period of years. Apples that behave like heroes one year can be dogs
the next. And the greatness of the fruit must also be accompanied by a
host of other assets, most of which can't be determined in a year or
two. Is the tree hardy? Is there more than average susceptibility to
any disease or insect? Do the apples fall off the tree before they
ripen? Does the tree bear fruit annually, or does it take a year off
now and then? Is it a shy bearer? Does the fruit tend to be smaller as
the tree matures? There are many questions to answer. The pros and
cons must be experienced and evaluated.
"In the case of Honeycrisp, the original tree had been scheduled for
removal, I hear, before U of Minnesota breeder David Bedford saved the
variety from extinction. He's the one who gets credit for bringing
Honeycrisp the rest of the way to its introduction, too. But, because
that tree had been there since Dave was a little kid (obviously not
working for the University yet), he would have had to wonder why
others had passed it by. Whoever it was who ate the one in [1974] was
gone or hadn't seen fit to hold a spot for it. So Dave would have been
inclined to be very sure it lived up to his standards. That would take
a while."
"After 1978, having had two of the worst winters back-to-back, there
was a gap of thirteen years before Honeycrisp was released. That's the
longest gap between University of Minnesota apple introductions since
the one after Haralson's introduction in 1922, when it took until 1936
to release Beacon.
"This thing about testing and releasing, as we see, is not an
overnight thing. And, oh, I almost forgot (seriously, I almost did!):
Things change in thirty years. It's easy to look back and say they
could have released Honeycrisp earlier, but, as important as the
weather climate, what about the apple industry climate and the
consumer market climate? The two decades from 1960 to 1980, plus and
minus, were dominated by the Red Delicious and Golden Delicious
syndrome. These varieties and their voluminous production in
Washington state trained consumers to think that apples were to be
100% red or 100% yellow. It was into the '80s before progressive
Washington grower Grady Auvil's 1972 inspiration to break into the
American market with New Zealand's green Granny Smith apple became a
significant factor. But that just added another color. Still 100%
green. There wasn't any room for stripes and partially-colored fruit
until consumers found out what they had been missing when the
flavorful Gala and Fuji appeared. These are very recent phenomena in
the U.S. apple market. They are the third and fourth most produced
apples in America now, rising rapidly while number one (Red Delicious)
and number two (Golden Delicious) are falling rapidly. But until the
year 2001, Gala was still so insignificant that the U.S.D.A. apple
report didn't even give it a position. It was just lumped in with 'All
Others.'"
"There are no notes from 1975 or 1976. Then, in 1977, a note was made
regarding the original tree, saying, 'Discard. Badly winter killed.'
We don't know whether it was removed dead or partially alive, but the
original tree went out of existence.
"O.K. So Bedford arrives in 1979. At some time he looks at the four
Honeycrisp trees, and, knowing the original had earned a discard,
marks them with discard tags, too. Why keep them? Then he observes
that they're in one of the worst, low, wet growing sites. It's not
fair. Eighty percent of the trees in that area are dead from a 'one in
fifty winter.' That 1974 description is incomplete and not very good,
but, since there is no poor description given, he feels it is still
undetermined. So he removes the discard tags. GREAT WORK, DAVE!
"There's a note that they weren't bearing in 1981. Then comes the
harvest of 1983, and Bedford notes: 'Disregard (the 1977) discard
note. Poor site, low and wet. Winter '76-'77 very severe. Outstanding
texture, could have promise.' GREAT WORK, DAVE!
"In 1984 he writes, 'No crop. Bad winter 1983-84.'
"He writes a very good report in 1985 and spends the next years
figuring out when to pick for proper maturity. Sometime between 1985
and 1987 in some margin notes he writes 'Honeycrisp' at the top of a
list of name possibilities. GREAT WORK, DAVE!"
Epilog:
"Records and public releases from the University of Minnesota
[including the patent] from 1991 to the present have identified the
parentage of Honeycrisp as the cross 'Macoun' x 'Honeygold'. But
recently completed DNA testing has determined that neither Macoun nor
Honeygold are parents of Honeycrisp. That's the answer to the question
no one was asking.
"The testing determined for certain that Keepsake, another apple from
the University of Minnesota's apple breeding program that was released
in 1978, is one of the parents. But, despite extensive searching, the
other parent has not been identified. There is no DNA match among any
of the varieties that are thought to be possible parents."
o Sponsel, Topper. "Honeycrisp." 14 Oct. 2006. _ Minnesota Harvest:
Apple Varieties_. 29 Oct. 2009
<http://www.minnesotaharvest.net/apple_honeycrisp.htm>.
--
... Be Seeing You,
... Chuck Rhode, Sheboygan, WI, USA
... Weather: http://LacusVeris.com/WX
... 54° — Wind SSE 14 mph — Sky overcast. |
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| Chuck Rhode... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:45 pm |
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On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:40:42 -0700, turby wrote:
Quote: The question started with Johnny Appleseed.
John Chapman was admired throughout Ohio and Indiana for his value as
a wacky distraction from pioneer drudgery. When he passed through
frontier hamlets, he distributed choice leaves from a stack of
religious pamphlets, and he read and discoursed from them. Although
he lived the life of an ascetic, he died with good title to hundreds
of acres of the Midwest, which he had planted to wild apples. He
hired caretakers on shares to sell nursery stock to emigrants from the
East. No doubt they ignored his scruples and used his seedlings as
root stock for grafting the scionwood of their favorite varieties from
home.
--
... Be Seeing You,
... Chuck Rhode, Sheboygan, WI, USA
... Weather: http://LacusVeris.com/WX
... 53° — Wind SSW 17 mph |
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