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| Gunny_2009... |
 Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:53 am |
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OK guys. Back on 2 August we had a discussion on what to do if one of your
serial numbers gets accidentally damaged and the whole number can no longer
be deciphered entirely. I wrote to the BATFE and asked for guidance. I
just received their answer in writing and have scanned the five pages and
posted them on Photobucket for your reading pleasure.
http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad247/Gunny_2009_album/BATFE_rules/
In summary, and with the exceptions listed in the document, if there was a
serial number but you can't determine the whole original number because of
accidental damage, the BATFE will give you a new number to put on the gun.
If you can determine the original serial number from records or laboratory
analysis, the BATFE will give you a letter making your possession of the
obliterated serial number gun legal until you can have the original number
restamped or engraved along with an additional BATFE number. The owner, a
gunsmith, or the manufacturer can do the numbering as long as the work meets
the standards specified.
All of this and the details and exceptions are in the 5 pages I scanned and
saved on Photobucket.
Gunny
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| jaf... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:20 am |
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"You should first report any such incident to your local ATF Field or Office."
I don't know what an ATF Field is, but I would report nothing.
I'd would run far and fast.
They have your name and address. Run.
Do not trust ATF, BATF, BATFE.
Look at this gobbliegook crap.
"If NO action is taken by state or local..."
"And investigation shows NO criminal intent ..."
"The AFT Agent SHALL..." "2. ADVISE THE OWNER THAT IT IS A VIOLATION to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate..."
"or to possess..." "and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate commerce."
Unless you can PROVE it was manufactured prior to 1968, accidental or not your in violation.
I would get to a bandsaw, cut it up, take it to a gunsmith pay him to take it to a metal recycler and melt it down.
Do it before they come knocking down your door.
John
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| cavalier... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:20 am |
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I want to thank you for the follow-up. It was an interesting
discussion and it's nice to see what the final result was.
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| Gunny_2008... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:57 pm |
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"cavalier" <cavalier24601 at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hca21c$iq$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
# I want to thank you for the follow-up. It was an interesting
# discussion and it's nice to see what the final result was.
#
You're welcome. I was curious what the proper legal procedure would be. I
can't guarantee anyone here will like the official answer or will be willing
to follow the instructions, but at least now we know the official answer.
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| Gunny_2008... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:57 pm |
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I figured not everyone would like the procedures. I didn't write them, but,
I figured it was worthwhile to post them. If you do follow them, it would
be good to have all your facts straight before going in. "The damage
happened accidentally and the gun has not been in interstate commerce."
These would be a couple of phrases to memorize. I'm not a lawyer and I'm
sure others will find some fine points of the law to argue here, especially
about the interstate commerce phrase. Other than that, everyone has to
decide for themselves which is the riskier course to take. i.e. Deal with
the BATFE and restore the number and be legal, or risk some stiff penalties
if you get caught later. As far as risking the BATFE being able to
determine your name and address and that you have guns, that horse has
already left the barn for most of us if we have ever bought a gun from an
FFL or used a credit card to buy guns or ammo.
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| dickr2... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:58 pm |
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With all due respect, may I ask why this is an issue?
Do you want to sell the shotgun in a state where S/Ns
are important?
I thought BATF(I) only cared about machine guns and some
handguns.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I always thought S/Ns on guns,
even of filed off, could be detected using some device
because S/Ns are stamped on the weapon, and the detectable
imprint on the steel remains.
I may be wrong, but I have been right - just a few times.
Dick
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| Jim... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:58 pm |
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"jaf" <jaf.here at (no spam) myfairpoint.net> wrote in message
news:hca21a$io$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
#
# I would get to a bandsaw, cut it up, take it to a gunsmith pay him to take
# it to a metal recycler and melt it down.
#
# Do it before they come knocking down your door.
#
#
# John
That was my response, too. I don't want to be on their radar. Just not worth
it.
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| Gunny_2008... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:38 pm |
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"dickr2" <dickr2 at (no spam) frontier.com> wrote in message
news:hcai9p$pfh$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
# With all due respect, may I ask why this is an issue?
# Do you want to sell the shotgun in a state where S/Ns
# are important?
# I thought BATF(I) only cared about machine guns and some
# handguns.
# Maybe I'm wrong, but I always thought S/Ns on guns,
# even of filed off, could be detected using some device
# because S/Ns are stamped on the weapon, and the detectable
# imprint on the steel remains.
# I may be wrong, but I have been right - just a few times.
#
# Dick
The serial number law applies to ALL guns that had a manufacturer's serial
number. Older guns that were made without serial numbers are exempt. BATFE
is very interested in ANY gun (rifle, handgun, shotgun, machinegun) whose
serial number has been INTENTIONALLY damaged for criminal motives. Bad
JuJu. True about recovering serial numbers in the laboratory. I have
seen the magnetic technique used to recover serial numbers that had been
ground off intentionally by criminals. But, that is a moot point to us
honest gun owners. If you are caught with one of those, it will be
confiscated and you might be prosecuted, so why bother restoring the number?
You might be able to recover a serial number from an accidentally damaged
gun using that technique. Hopefully, you have already recorded all of your
serial numbers for theft purposes. If so, then you don't have to get fancy
to determine the number if it is accidentally damaged. Just look it up in
your records and restore the original number while following the BATFE
procedures. Keeping a gun with a damaged serial number is done so at
your own risk. It's your free choice on which is worse. For the people
concerned about flying under the radar, it's too late if you have ever used
your credit card to buy guns OR ammo. If the government ever wants a list,
they could subpoena (or just seize) sales records from Wally World or your
local gun store and track you by your credit cards.
Like I mentioned to others, I didn't write the rules and I'm not defending
their logic. I'm just publishing them for your benefit. Use them or not.
Your choice.
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| Larry Fishel... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:39 am |
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On Oct 28, 6:58 pm, dickr2 <dic... at (no spam) frontier.com> wrote:
# Maybe I'm wrong, but I always thought S/Ns on guns,
# even of filed off, could be detected using some device
# because S/Ns are stamped on the weapon, and the detectable
# imprint on the steel remains.
Up to a point, that is is true, but in researching this when the
question was first posted I found a couple of cases where people tried
that defense, and it didn't fly. On the other hand, those were people
who had intentionally removed the serial number and were trying to
weasel out of it, but the precedent is there...
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| Gunny_2009... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:39 am |
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"Gunny_2009" <patmagroin_16 at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hc9bc8$sid$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
# OK guys. Back on 2 August we had a discussion on what to do if one of
your
# serial numbers gets accidentally damaged and the whole number can no
longer
# be deciphered entirely. I wrote to the BATFE and asked for guidance. I
# just received their answer in writing and have scanned the five pages and
# posted them on Photobucket for your reading pleasure.
#
# http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad247/Gunny_2009_album/BATFE_rules/
#
So, just for grins, how about a little survey. If you had a nice
firearm that had been dropped or whatever and part of the serial number had
been accidentally mangled, would you just keep it and risk being caught some
day or would you go through the BATFE procedures to legally restore the
number?
Just curious what the spread of opinions are.
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| jaf... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:40 am |
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The point is where did the firearm come from?
If I've purchased it, I can prove what the s/n was with documentation.
If my great uncle on my brother in-laws kiss'n cousins side left it to me,
and I don't have any paperwork,
It's jail time. May as well be stolen.
John
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| IGot2P... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:40 am |
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No one, especially the BATFE, would ever know it except me.
Don
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| Jim... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:40 am |
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"Gunny_2009" <patmagroin_16 at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hcc2db$snc$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
#
# So, just for grins, how about a little survey. If you had a nice
# firearm that had been dropped or whatever and part of the serial number
# had
# been accidentally mangled, would you just keep it and risk being caught
# some
# day or would you go through the BATFE procedures to legally restore the
# number?
#
# Just curious what the spread of opinions are.
If the damage amounted to anything that could be construed as "obliterated"
or "altered", I'd dump it. It wouldn't be worth the lifetime of misery the
BATFE could inflict.
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| Lame Duck... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:40 am |
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"Gunny_2009" <patmagroin_16 at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hcc2db$snc$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
# So, just for grins, how about a little survey. If you had a nice
# firearm that had been dropped or whatever and part of the serial number
# had
# been accidentally mangled, would you just keep it and risk being caught
# some
# day or would you go through the BATFE procedures to legally restore the
# number?
#
# Just curious what the spread of opinions are.
I'd go through the BATFE procedures AND consult an attorney. My personal
policy is to stay squeaky clean. Therefore (the theory goes) I should have
nothing to fear.
You asked, I answered.
Al
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| Gunny_2008... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:20 am |
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# So, just for grins, how about a little survey. If you had a nice
# firearm that had been dropped or whatever and part of the serial number
had
# been accidentally mangled, would you just keep it and risk being caught
some
# day or would you go through the BATFE procedures to legally restore the
# number?
#
# Just curious what the spread of opinions are.
#
I'll jump in on my own survey. I have seen guns that have had their serial
numbers intentionally ground off in an attempt to make them untraceable.
They look distinctly different than a gun that was dropped onto something
hard and had damage to one or two digits or a gun that was being worked on
and a tool accidentally cut into one or two digits. The former case is
moot. I don't and won't own a gun that has had its serial number
intentionally ground off. On the other hand, if it is pretty visually
obvious that the damage was accidental, I think I would take the legal
route. I like one of the earlier posters' idea about talking to an
attorney first, just to be sure. As a responsible gun owner, I prefer to
obey the law. As far as staying below the radar as a gun owner goes, I
have bought far too many guns from stores to believe that the BATFE is still
unaware of my existence. As always, everyone is free to make their own
decisions on something like this.
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