This topic has come up before and I would like to approach it once
more:  with what could be termed a watering down of heraldic
proprieties: lack of soverign  support and oversight, relaxations in
some sovereign presentations, i.e. the English helm afronte for
aesthetic purposes, forms of pseudo-heraldry etc.  It all begs the
question of where heraldry as an institution will be in 100 or so
years and secondly is there any evidence that heraldry can be shorn-up
by monarchies and republics that have an established practice of it?

On Oct 24, 2:58 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:

This topic has come up before and I would like to approach it once
more:  with what could be termed a watering down of heraldic
proprieties: lack of soverign  support and oversight, relaxations in
some sovereign presentations, i.e. the English helm afronte for
aesthetic purposes, forms of pseudo-heraldry etc.  It all begs the
question of where heraldry as an institution will be in 100 or so
years and secondly is there any evidence that heraldry can be shorn-up
by monarchies and republics that have an established practice of it?

Heraldry is quite sound in Germany without sovereign involvement.  The
republic protects all published arms from misuse or usurpation.
Anyone in Germany, and some outside, can chose to bear new arms and
the publication requirements are simple and well managed by the
various heraldic societies.

Since heraldry has existed mainly on paper for centuries, I see no
reason, seeing there is no paper shortage, why it shouldn't prosper
for some centruries to come.

I don't concern myself greatly British/Irish heraldic practice, and
will not broach it tonight as I can hear you sharpening your knives
even at this distance.

Best regards,
Mark E Sievert

This topic has come up before and I would like to approach it once
more: with what could be termed a watering down of heraldic
proprieties: lack of soverign support and oversight, relaxations in
some sovereign presentations, i.e. the English helm afronte for
aesthetic purposes, forms of pseudo-heraldry etc. It all begs the
question of where heraldry as an institution will be in 100 or so
years and secondly is there any evidence that heraldry can be shorn-up
by monarchies and republics that have an established practice of it?

On 24 Oct, 19:22, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net> wrote:





On Oct 24, 2:58 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:

This topic has come up before and I would like to approach it once
more:  with what could be termed a watering down of heraldic
proprieties: lack of soverign  support and oversight, relaxations in
some sovereign presentations, i.e. the English helm afronte for
aesthetic purposes, forms of pseudo-heraldry etc.  It all begs the
question of where heraldry as an institution will be in 100 or so
years and secondly is there any evidence that heraldry can be shorn-up
by monarchies and republics that have an established practice of it?

Heraldry is quite sound in Germany without sovereign involvement.  The
republic protects all published arms from misuse or usurpation.
Anyone in Germany, and some outside, can chose to bear new arms and
the publication requirements are simple and well managed by the
various heraldic societies.

Since heraldry has existed mainly on paper for centuries, I see no
reason, seeing there is no paper shortage, why it shouldn't prosper
for some centruries to come.

I don't concern myself greatly British/Irish heraldic practice, and
will not broach it tonight as I can hear you sharpening your knives
even at this distance.

Best regards,
Mark E Sievert

So in Germany then, arms are assumed and the private societies manage
- various registers? or is there one register?

I'm also interested to know if various authorities have made any
changes from past practices.

Thanks.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Oct 24, 10:39 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:





On 24 Oct, 19:22, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net> wrote:

On Oct 24, 2:58 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:

This topic has come up before and I would like to approach it once
more:  with what could be termed a watering down of heraldic
proprieties: lack of soverign  support and oversight, relaxations in
some sovereign presentations, i.e. the English helm afronte for
aesthetic purposes, forms of pseudo-heraldry etc.  It all begs the
question of where heraldry as an institution will be in 100 or so
years and secondly is there any evidence that heraldry can be shorn-up
by monarchies and republics that have an established practice of it?

Heraldry is quite sound in Germany without sovereign involvement.  The
republic protects all published arms from misuse or usurpation.
Anyone in Germany, and some outside, can chose to bear new arms and
the publication requirements are simple and well managed by the
various heraldic societies.

Since heraldry has existed mainly on paper for centuries, I see no
reason, seeing there is no paper shortage, why it shouldn't prosper
for some centruries to come.

I don't concern myself greatly British/Irish heraldic practice, and
will not broach it tonight as I can hear you sharpening your knives
even at this distance.

Best regards,
Mark E Sievert

So in Germany then, arms are assumed and the private societies manage
- various registers? or is there one register?

I'm also interested to know if various authorities have made any
changes from past practices.

Thanks.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are about as many German heraldic societies as there are
states.  One of the betters lists of them can be found atwww.armorial-register.com
under heraldic societies.

There also exists a sort of omnibus site for German registrations atwww.wappenindex.de There you can find about 1000 registations of old
royal, noble, and assumed arms that span the wide range of germanic
heraldic practice and taste.

Taste is a fastinasting theme in German heraldry as many hochadel arms
are sleek, simple, and frankly unsupported as antiquity of the arms is
the prize worth boasting.  Many contemporary assumed arms use
supporters for the simple fact that German arms with supporters denote
no special rank or class, except for that class of heraldic client
that wishes to pay more to the artist.  A refreshing attitude I  dare
say.

Best regards,
Mark E Sievert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

 Many contemporary assumed arms use
supporters for the simple fact that German arms with supporters denote
no special rank or class, except for that class of heraldic client
that wishes to pay more to the artist.  

On Oct 24, 10:39 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:





On 24 Oct, 19:22, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net> wrote:

On Oct 24, 2:58 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:

This topic has come up before and I would like to approach it once
more:  with what could be termed a watering down of heraldic
proprieties: lack of soverign  support and oversight, relaxations in
some sovereign presentations, i.e. the English helm afronte for
aesthetic purposes, forms of pseudo-heraldry etc.  It all begs the
question of where heraldry as an institution will be in 100 or so
years and secondly is there any evidence that heraldry can be shorn-up
by monarchies and republics that have an established practice of it?

Heraldry is quite sound in Germany without sovereign involvement.  The
republic protects all published arms from misuse or usurpation.
Anyone in Germany, and some outside, can chose to bear new arms and
the publication requirements are simple and well managed by the
various heraldic societies.

Since heraldry has existed mainly on paper for centuries, I see no
reason, seeing there is no paper shortage, why it shouldn't prosper
for some centruries to come.

I don't concern myself greatly British/Irish heraldic practice, and
will not broach it tonight as I can hear you sharpening your knives
even at this distance.

Best regards,
Mark E Sievert

So in Germany then, arms are assumed and the private societies manage
- various registers? or is there one register?

I'm also interested to know if various authorities have made any
changes from past practices.

Thanks.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are about as many German heraldic societies as there are
states.  One of the betters lists of them can be found atwww.armorial-register.com
under heraldic societies.

There also exists a sort of omnibus site for German registrations atwww.wappenindex.de There you can find about 1000 registations of old
royal, noble, and assumed arms that span the wide range of germanic
heraldic practice and taste.

Taste is a fastinasting theme in German heraldry as many hochadel arms
are sleek, simple, and frankly unsupported as antiquity of the arms is
the prize worth boasting.  Many contemporary assumed arms use
supporters for the simple fact that German arms with supporters denote
no special rank or class, except for that class of heraldic client
that wishes to pay more to the artist.  A refreshing attitude I  dare
say.

Best regards,
Mark E Sievert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Oct 25, 11:34 am, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net
wrote:



 Many contemporary assumed arms use
supporters for the simple fact that German arms with supporters denote
no special rank or class, except for that class of heraldic client
that wishes to pay more to the artist.  

That depends on the society doing the registering.  As I understand
it, the more conservative (and more highly regarded) societies, such
as Der Herold and Zum Kleeblatt, will not record supporters with newly
assumed arms.  As the Handbuch der Heraldik-Wappenfibel published by
Der Herold says, "In Deutschland is der Brauch, Schildhalter zum
Familienwappen zu fuehren, auf den titulierten Adel beschraenkt
geblieben [In Germany the bearing of supporters with family arms is
generally limited to the titled nobility.]"

Joseph McMillan

"In Deutschland is der Brauch, Schildhalter zum
Familienwappen zu fuehren, auf den titulierten Adel beschraenkt
geblieben [In Germany the bearing of supporters with family arms is
generally limited to the titled nobility.]"

Better translation: "In Germany, the custom of bearing supporters

On Oct 25, 10:48 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:





On Oct 25, 11:34 am, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net
wrote:

 Many contemporary assumed arms use
supporters for the simple fact that German arms with supporters denote
no special rank or class, except for that class of heraldic client
that wishes to pay more to the artist.  

That depends on the society doing the registering.  As I understand
it, the more conservative (and more highly regarded) societies, such
as Der Herold and Zum Kleeblatt, will not record supporters with newly
assumed arms.  As the Handbuch der Heraldik-Wappenfibel published by
Der Herold says, "In Deutschland is der Brauch, Schildhalter zum
Familienwappen zu fuehren, auf den titulierten Adel beschraenkt
geblieben [In Germany the bearing of supporters with family arms is
generally limited to the titled nobility.]"

Joseph McMillan

True. The taste of the particular herald can make a difference in the
registration.  But I figure if someone especially wanted supporters in
a German registration, all that is required is a bit of shopping.  For
this reason to me supporters are practically meaningless.

Best regards,
Mark E Sievert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Oct 25, 11:48 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:>"In Deutschland is der Brauch, Schildhalter zum
Familienwappen zu fuehren, auf den titulierten Adel beschraenkt
geblieben [In Germany the bearing of supporters with family arms is
generally limited to the titled nobility.]"

Better translation:  "In Germany, the custom of bearing supporters
with family arms is limited to the titled nobility."

Joseph McMillan

On 25 Oct, 09:36, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net> wrote:





On Oct 25, 10:48 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 25, 11:34 am, Mark E Sievert <marksiev... at (no spam) centurytel.net
wrote:

 Many contemporary assumed arms use
supporters for the simple fact that German arms with supporters denote
no special rank or class, except for that class of heraldic client
that wishes to pay more to the artist.  

That depends on the society doing the registering.  As I understand
it, the more conservative (and more highly regarded) societies, such
as Der Herold and Zum Kleeblatt, will not record supporters with newly
assumed arms.  As the Handbuch der Heraldik-Wappenfibel published by
Der Herold says, "In Deutschland is der Brauch, Schildhalter zum
Familienwappen zu fuehren, auf den titulierten Adel beschraenkt
geblieben [In Germany the bearing of supporters with family arms is
generally limited to the titled nobility.]"

Joseph McMillan

True. The taste of the particular herald can make a difference in the
registration.  But I figure if someone especially wanted supporters in
a German registration, all that is required is a bit of shopping.  For
this reason to me supporters are practically meaningless.

Best regards,
Mark E Sievert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's very interesting about supporters.  It seems then that heraldic
politics are rather wide spread. Is the non-class distinction of
supporters true with all additaments?  It would seem that in the days
of the empire though, such additmaments would have carried some
communication of rank . . .  It seems very odd, to me anyway that,
these types of things can just be (assumed) and taken seriously by the
more learned.

And as Jos was saying: what exactly (aside form the obvious) would
make one register more prestigeous than another?  Just time, or some
other kind of notice?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Oct 25, 2:17 pm, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 25, 11:48 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:>"In Deutschland is der Brauch, Schildhalter zum
Familienwappen zu fuehren, auf den titulierten Adel beschraenkt
geblieben [In Germany the bearing of supporters with family arms is
generally limited to the titled nobility.]"

Better translation:  "In Germany, the custom of bearing supporters
with family arms is limited to the titled nobility."

Joseph McMillan

Looking through the Wappen Index I might say that that custom has not
been enforced for some time.  Personally, I do not use supporters, nor
wish them.

MES

Helms affronty, just because they look better?  Outrageous!  The world is just going to hell in a handbasket.