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| Mohan... |
 Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:47 pm |
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On Oct 20, 10:35 am, Offstump <rgopal... at (no spam) netscape.net> wrote:
Quote: On Oct 19, 11:04 am, alvey <al... at (no spam) play.com> wrote:> On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:04:51 -0700 (PDT), tendulkar.com wrote:
There is really nothing else to say after this (esp to the clueless
alvey's of the world)
Absolutely!
I'm actually quite enjoying this Slog'n'Flog. Especially with the IPL sides
doing so very, very badly and the sides without imports doing so very, very
well.
Let us look at the actual results: Of the four matches played (in both
rounds), T&T has won all four, NSW and Cobras have three and Victoria
has won two. Compared to this the RC and DD have won two matches. Even
ignoring yesterday's match, winning three matches is doing very very
well whereas winning two matches is very very badly, eh Alvey?
Though your point about regionalism being a motivator has some merit,
Even that is lazy analysis. I would attribute it more to which team
wanted to win more badly - the million dollar prize money obviously
matters much more to the first class players than to those who already
have lucrative IPL deals. Just as the poorly paid Windies players beat
the English team in the Stanford cup. That is not to say that anyone
who wants to win badly will always win, but that can be a significant
factor - a more significant factor IMO, than things like "regional
pride", "teams gelling well" etc (T20 is such fast-paced game, where
is the time for things like team spirit etc to come into play?). Of
course, most important factor is that the team that played better
cricket on the day (or got better of the conditions in some cases)
won.
Mohan |
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| Mohan... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:53 pm |
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On Oct 20, 2:29 am, jzfredricks <jzfredri... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On Oct 19, 2:07 pm, jzfredricks <jzfredri... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 19, 1:57 pm, Mohan <dpuse... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Which is fine. The goal is not to eliminate partisanship at all, but
to get rid of the stupid restrictions that nation vs nation system
places on the game.
So you support dropping the IPL's "4 foreign player" rule?
No comment?
I can understand why the rule is there, but I don't mind if it is
dropped. Either way, even with that rule, IPL is lot less restrictive
than nation vs nation system.
Mohan |
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| Andrew Dunford... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:21 pm |
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"Jayen" <rsc_poster at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8c34abbb-4d99-4d58-971c-0ab0c4923a16 at (no spam) g3g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
Quote: On Oct 19, 12:48 pm, "Andrew Dunford" <adunf... at (no spam) artifax.net> wrote:
"Mohan" <dpuse... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7fe4f62d-db87-48ee-a9d2-729210b22109 at (no spam) y28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 19, 10:40 am, "Andrew Dunford" <adunf... at (no spam) artifax.net> wrote:
"Mohan" <dpuse... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:947f2e30-b82a-42e2-812b-ac837fed1654 at (no spam) k13g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
snip
And this growing side-by-side may apply to other sports,
but given cricket's limitations (so few national teams, spread in
different parts of the world, etc) once club cricket establishes its
popularity, international cricket will pale in comparison.
Don't see it myself. International rugby has only as many competent
international teams. Rugby become professional only in 1995 and the
European (UK mainly) club competitions have grown enormously since that
time, with many NZ, Australian and South African players giving up
playing
for their country in order to earn better wages at English or French
clubs,
but this hasn't really threatened the primacy of Test matches.
Andrew
Don't know much about Rugby, so please provide some info.
Does Rugby have the same disparity in standards that International
cricket has (Is there an equivalent of an Aus v Bangladesh)? Is there
an FTP which *has* to be adhered to?
Yes, there are mismatch fixtures (strong teams tolerate rate them as warm-up
matches at the beginning of a season) but there is nothing as onerous as an
FTP.
Quote: How much time do Rugby players
spend in club tournaments as opposed to Country-vs-Country matches?
One of the major differences between rugby and cricket at the moment is that
rugby has long periods when there are no international fixtures scheduled
and players appear for their clubs. Indeed during the northern hemisphere
there are strictly-enforced international 'window' weekends rather like in
football i.e. the European clubs are only obliged to release their players
to national teams for a certain (and small) number of days during the club
season.
I don't doubt that something similar is inevitable eventually in cricket
also, if competitions such as the IPL continue to grow. What I am disputing
is that it will cause international cricket to 'pale in comparision'.
Note that the southern hemisphere rugby nations already enforce a rule that
players must be based locally in order to play for the national team, which
means that many players retire from international rugby early in order to
earn better wages playing for clubs in the UK and France.
Andrew |
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| Geoff Muldoon... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:17 pm |
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Jayen says...
Quote: And this growing side-by-side may apply to other sports,
but given cricket's limitations (so few national teams, spread in
different parts of the world, etc) once club cricket establishes its
popularity, international cricket will pale in comparison.
Don't see it myself. International rugby has only as many competent
international teams. Rugby become professional only in 1995 and the
European (UK mainly) club competitions have grown enormously since that
time, with many NZ, Australian and South African players giving up playing
for their country in order to earn better wages at English or French clubs,
but this hasn't really threatened the primacy of Test matches.
Don't know much about Rugby, so please provide some info.
Does Rugby have the same disparity in standards that International
cricket has (Is there an equivalent of an Aus v Bangladesh)? Is there
an FTP which *has* to be adhered to? How much time do Rugby players
spend in club tournaments as opposed to Country-vs-Country matches?
Internationally ...
Rugby at the international level has about 10 "top-flight test" teams,
which could be equated with cricket's test level: NZ, Australia, South
Africa, Argentina, England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France and Italy.
There is some disparity even within that group, Italy to beat NZ would
most certainly have much greater odds that cricket's Aus v. Bangles.
Some in the next tier (Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Japan, Korea, Canada, USA,
Russia, Romania, Georgia, Portugal, Spain, Uruguay, Namibia, Kenya) will
occasionally give some of the "lesser" top teams a good shake up. Fiji is
actually currently ranked 9th in the IRB World rankings and Samoa 11th,
pushing Scotland down to 10th and Italy to 12th respectively.
The rankings go down to 95th (Finland), India FYI has just dropped a spot
to 85th after Bulgaria leapfrogged all the way up to 83rd.
http://www.irb.com/rankings/index.html
There is no exact science as to which matches between disparate sides are
granted test status, and second-string "A" sides from the top nations
regularly play non-capped matches against lower nations.
There is no "future tours program" encompassing all nations, the top
northern hemisphere ones play each other annually in the Six Nations
competition, and the southern hemisphere Tri-Nations is about to expand to
4 to finally include Argentina. Other second and third tier competitions
(Africa Cup, Pacific Nations, Europe B, etc.) exist for the rest.
Spring and Autumn tours between the top level national teams and selected
invitational sides (Lions, Barbarians) are organised between the
individual unions. Then you also have the prestigious Rugby World Cup
every 4 years.
And of course there is the nearly-as-prestigious UseNet R.S.R.U. Shield:
http://www.brombeer.net/rugby/shield.html
....
The next tiers ...
In some places the next tier is professional franchised provincial
competitions, the southern hemisphere's NZ/AUS/RSA combined Super14 being
the standout, with NZ (NPC) and South Africa (Currie Cup) even having
domestic provincial competitions before you reach down to the club level.
Here, the international (and even top provincial) players might play
between zero and a mere handful of club games a season.
In other places - England, France, Italy and notably Japan - fully
professional club-level rugby dominates as the second tier. International
players are independently recruited by clubs, often temporarily foregoing
national selection eligibility if from the provincial-competition
countries to take up highly lucrative contracts, with other players have
soccer-like clauses attempting to force clubs to release them for
international duties. In England and France, local players would usually
have many more games for their clubs than for the national team.
The Celtic nations have also been experimenting with provincial
competitions, but the club scene is probably equally as strong.
For the rest, club rugby is the only available next tier, and is often
only semi-professional at best.
GM |
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| alvey... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:11 pm |
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On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 01:15:51 +1300, Andrew Dunford wrote:
Quote: "alvey" <alvey_embarrassingstains at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:19luf7l2b4qhv$.oickyg8jcr9l.dlg at (no spam) 40tude.net...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:30:01 -0700 (PDT), Mohan wrote:
On Oct 20, 1:30 pm, alvey <al... at (no spam) play.com> wrote:
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:47:03 -0700 (PDT), Mohan wrote:
On Oct 20, 10:35 am, Offstump <rgopal... at (no spam) netscape.net> wrote:
On Oct 19, 11:04 am, alvey <al... at (no spam) play.com> wrote:> On Sat, 17 Oct
2009 19:04:51 -0700 (PDT), tendulkar.com wrote:
There is really nothing else to say after this (esp to the clueless
alvey's of the world)
Absolutely!
I'm actually quite enjoying this Slog'n'Flog. Especially with the IPL
sides
doing so very, very badly and the sides without imports doing so
very, very
well.
Let us look at the actual results: Of the four matches played (in both
rounds), T&T has won all four, NSW and Cobras have three and Victoria
has won two. Compared to this the RC and DD have won two matches. Even
ignoring yesterday's match, winning three matches is doing very very
well whereas winning two matches is very very badly, eh Alvey?
Though your point about regionalism being a motivator has some merit,
Even that is lazy analysis.
Really?
Well I look forward to the penetrating and incisive reasoning that will
surely follow.
I would attribute it more to which team
wanted to win more badly - the million dollar prize money obviously
matters much more to the first class players than to those who already
have lucrative IPL deals.
You've mirrored the IPL teams here sport. Failed to deliver.
And how are you going to escape this conundrum whereby the IPL players
lose
their edge as soon as they sign an IPL contract? If this CL format is
going
to continue then I can't see the gloss on the IPL product lasting if its
best teams continue to get beaten by the likes of Zummerset.
alvey
At least one County chairman seems to have arrived at the opposite
conclusion of what you have done with regards to the impact of imports
on performance of teams in the CL:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/twenty20/6376378/Indian-cricket-has-left-English-game-trailing-in-its-wake-says-Somerset-chairman-Andy-Nash.html
"Nash also confirmed Somerset were in talks with Graeme Smith and
Cameron White to play in next year's Twenty20 cricket after it became
clear at the Champions League that counties would have to pay for
better imported talent if they wanted to compete in this competition."
Mohan
Andy Nash sounds a right cock.
I liked this additive though. "Andy Nash accompanied Somerset for their
first week at the Champions League and has admitted the experience has
highlighted the ground that needs to be recaptured to keep pace with the
powerhouse of Indian cricket."
How many sides did the "powerhouse" get into semis in a comp in their own
backyard? Why that'd be none. lol.
On another tack....Does this mean that White could have the choice of
three
sides for the next CL? That's a good look.
There were already blokes who had played for three separate domestic teams
leading up to this tournament e.g. McCullum (Kolkata, Otago, NSW),
Mascarenhas (Otago, Hampshire, Rajasthan), Napier (Mumbai, Wellington,
Essex). Somebody will probably qualify for four teams in a single year soon
enough.
Thank you Dorothy.
I wonder if future IPL contracts will have a clause inserted which makes it
mandatory for the player to represent their IPL franchise whenever
required?
alvey |
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| Geico Caveman... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:22 pm |
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On 2009-10-17 19:04:51 -0700, "tendulkar.com" <tendulkar.com at (no spam) gmail.com> said:
This
Quote:
is the killer verdict. Home team already out. Basically a dead
match. What an atmosphere!!!
Note to idiots: Listen to the roar when South African Van der Merwe
took out India's national hero Sehwag or when Steyn got Gambhir
Here is an interesting link:
http://www.cricinfo.com/t20champions2009/content/current/story/430492.html
""The passion and the efforts that the guys have shown on the field of
play have got us through to the semi-finals," Ganga told Cricinfo's
Switch Hit podcast. "A lot of people never really expected us to go so
far in the competition, but if you look at the framework of our cricket
and of our club, and of all the other teams that have competed, one
thing going for us is our national pride and patriotism.
"That is a hallmark of this team, being able to separate themselves,
and realise they are not just representing the 11 players on the field
or the 20 guys that are travelling, but all the rest of the people back
in Trinidad, and by extension the wider Caribbean.""
Of course, there are a lot of people who will pretend that cricket is
football and the history of national rivalry (or "passport-based"
competition as they like to deride it as) is something that can be
shoved under the carpet. |
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| Uday Rajan... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:13 pm |
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On Oct 17, 10:04 pm, "tendulkar.com" <tendulkar.... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
One of the teams was the home team, though. Let's wait and see if the
crowd turns out for the semi-finals and finals, with no Indian team in
the mix. |
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| Geoff Muldoon... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:18 pm |
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Jayen says...
Quote: It's difficult to draw a direct parallel as the Rugby matches seem to
have a reasonably uniform format and don't have the differences
(tests, T20, ODI) that cricket has. Not sure how that would pan out.
There are actually two distinct forms in rugby, the "real" game, played at
test all the way to club competition level, and purely tournament-style
Rugby Sevens, as slated for the Olympics, which could be likened somewhat
to T20 in cricket.
The real game is played 15-per-side over two 40-minute halves, not unlike
a traditional football game.
Rugby Sevens is played on a full-sized pitch but with only seven players
per side, seven minutes per half (10 minutes for tournament grand finals).
Typically, a 7s tournament will be played over a single weekend with the
following format:
- 32 teams, seeded into 8 pools of 4 teams each.
- Round robin pool games on the first day, every side plays 3 matches
throughout the day against other pool members.
- Top team in each pool goes through to the main (cup) finals series,
second in each pool though to the B (bowl) series, third to the C (plate)
series etc.
- Second day is pure knockout, quarters, semis, finals for each series, so
to win a tournament you will play six (admittedly short) games in two
days.
The World Rugby Sevens tour uses this format, with individual tournaments
scheduled over weekends in locations around the world, the most famous
being the Hong Kong Sevens, with the title of World Champions being
decided based on points for the results in each of the tournaments.
I spent last weekend enjoying the 20th annual Byron Bay Sevens, where a
side entered by my old club (albeit with the assistance of of a couple of
seriously professional ring-ins in the squad) took out the AU$4,500 cup
final, defeating a visiting Fijian selection.
GM |
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| Mohan... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:26 pm |
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On Oct 21, 7:13 am, Uday Rajan <udayra... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: On Oct 17, 10:04 pm, "tendulkar.com" <tendulkar.... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
There is really nothing else to say after this (esp to the clueless
alvey's of the world)
http://cricket-online.tv/delhi-daredevils-vs-royal-challengers-bangal...
This is the killer verdict. Home team already out. Basically a dead
match. What an atmosphere!!!
One of the teams was the home team, though. Let's wait and see if the
crowd turns out for the semi-finals and finals, with no Indian team in
the mix.
I doubt it. Crowd for neutral matches so far has been only slightly
better than an average Test match attendance. But the fact that there
is such a big turnout for home team matches is itself encouraging for
IPL, because it indicates that team loyalty is building which was one
of the key questions asked about the club-based model.
Mohan |
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| Mohan... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:36 pm |
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On Oct 21, 9:08 am, "Andrew Dunford" <adunf... at (no spam) artifax.net> wrote:
<snip>
Quote: I'm not sure why anyone would question the concept of loyalty to a local
club-based team - it's a long-established concept.
Yet, people did ask that question when IPL started. The argument was
that cricket has always been along national lines, it is the national
rivalries that generate passion, how many people come to watch
Ranji's, how can Bangaloreans feel any sort of affinity to a team
consisting of Kallis, Boucher, Taylor, Steyn, Praveen Kumar and Kohli,
etc. So it is encouraging to see that people do have loyalty towards
these made-up teams.
Quote: What you should be asking is whether it is possible to build any kind of
loyalty by attempting to rebrand cricket as showbiz when the likelihood is
that the new so-called fans attracted to the game are likely to drift away
again as soon as the next version of Playstation is released.
I am not worried about that because very few of these are "new fans
attracted to the game". It is hard to get new cricket fans in India
other than the newborns. You must be confusing India with England. The
fans that are flocking to these IPL and CL games are mostly long-time
cricket fans who used to cheer Sachin's and Dhoni's earlier and are
cheering Uthappa's and Taylor's now.
Mohan |
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| Andrew Dunford... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:39 pm |
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"tendulkar.com" <tendulkar.com at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a0e3c093-8663-4b7a-82e8-bd1988fb7f1f at (no spam) r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
The delicious irony of what you write is that the only unbeaten team in the
competition is the only one representing a nation.
Andrew |
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| Andrew Dunford... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:08 pm |
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"Mohan" <dpusenet at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:31bf5196-8fae-4362-9e2c-7c091fcd2e16 at (no spam) d4g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
Quote: On Oct 21, 7:13 am, Uday Rajan <udayra... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
On Oct 17, 10:04 pm, "tendulkar.com" <tendulkar.... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
There is really nothing else to say after this (esp to the clueless
alvey's of the world)
http://cricket-online.tv/delhi-daredevils-vs-royal-challengers-bangal...
This is the killer verdict. Home team already out. Basically a dead
match. What an atmosphere!!!
One of the teams was the home team, though. Let's wait and see if the
crowd turns out for the semi-finals and finals, with no Indian team in
the mix.
I doubt it. Crowd for neutral matches so far has been only slightly
better than an average Test match attendance. But the fact that there
is such a big turnout for home team matches is itself encouraging for
IPL, because it indicates that team loyalty is building which was one
of the key questions asked about the club-based model.
I'm not sure why anyone would question the concept of loyalty to a local
club-based team - it's a long-established concept.
What you should be asking is whether it is possible to build any kind of
loyalty by attempting to rebrand cricket as showbiz when the likelihood is
that the new so-called fans attracted to the game are likely to drift away
again as soon as the next version of Playstation is released.
Andrew |
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| Geoff Muldoon... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:59 pm |
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In article <ukp1ow9td1zy$.o9x4m88bq0fl$.dlg at (no spam) 40tude.net>, alvey says...
Quote: On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:18:31 +1100, Geoff Muldoon wrote:
I spent last weekend enjoying the 20th annual Byron Bay Sevens, where a
side entered by my old club (albeit with the assistance of of a couple of
seriously professional ring-ins in the squad) took out the AU$4,500 cup
final, defeating a visiting Fijian selection.
A better result than Darren Albert then.
Didn't see the hit, but heard about it around the grounds. Glad they were
able to save his spleen.
GM |
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