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| Sean J Murphy... |
 Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:08 pm |
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I haven't been around for a while, so I'm not sure if the following was
noted here:
'The Office of the Chief Herald is currently not accepting new
applications for grants or confirmations or arms owing to the retirement
of the Chief Herald. The application process will resume when a new
appointment has been made.' http://www.nli.ie/en/heraldry-introduction.aspx
This should be read in the context of the desperate cost-cutting plan to
merge the National Archives of Ireland and the Irish Manuscripts
Commission 'into' (not 'with') the National Library of Ireland. It
remains to be seen whether the heraldists' reserves of cunning and
reliance on forgetfulness concerning Mac Carthy Mór and related
entanglements are sufficient to see them survive in the new slimmed-down
body.
Sean Murphy
An Irish Arms Crisis
http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/armscrisis.htm
PS Weariness caused me not to mark the tenth anniversary of Terence
MacCarthy's 'abdication' on 9 October 1999. |
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| Greg... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:44 pm |
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On 17 Oct, 17:08, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote:
Quote: I haven't been around for a while, so I'm not sure if the following was
noted here:
'The Office of the Chief Herald is currently not accepting new
applications for grants or confirmations or arms owing to the retirement
of the Chief Herald. The application process will resume when a new
appointment has been made.'http://www.nli.ie/en/heraldry-introduction.aspx
This should be read in the context of the desperate cost-cutting plan to
merge the National Archives of Ireland and the Irish Manuscripts
Commission 'into' (not 'with') the National Library of Ireland. It
remains to be seen whether the heraldists' reserves of cunning and
reliance on forgetfulness concerning Mac Carthy Mór and related
entanglements are sufficient to see them survive in the new slimmed-down
body.
Sean Murphy
An Irish Arms Crisishttp://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/armscrisis.htm
PS Weariness caused me not to mark the tenth anniversary of Terence
MacCarthy's 'abdication' on 9 October 1999.
Remember the cloud?. . . It's still raining. |
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| Michael Merrigan... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:46 pm |
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On Oct 18, 1:08 am, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote:
Quote: I haven't been around for a while, so I'm not sure if the following was
noted here:
'The Office of the Chief Herald is currently not accepting new
applications for grants or confirmations or arms owing to the retirement
of the Chief Herald. The application process will resume when a new
appointment has been made.'http://www.nli.ie/en/heraldry-introduction.aspx
This should be read in the context of the desperate cost-cutting plan to
merge the National Archives of Ireland and the Irish Manuscripts
Commission 'into' (not 'with') the National Library of Ireland. It
remains to be seen whether the heraldists' reserves of cunning and
reliance on forgetfulness concerning Mac Carthy Mór and related
entanglements are sufficient to see them survive in the new slimmed-down
body.
Sean Murphy
An Irish Arms Crisishttp://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/armscrisis.htm
PS Weariness caused me not to mark the tenth anniversary of Terence
MacCarthy's 'abdication' on 9 October 1999.
A Chairde,
Regarding the notice on the National Library's website - the
provisions of Section 13 (2) of the National Cultural Institutions
Act, 1997 - as follows, may be of interest.
(2) The Board shall, from time to time as occasion requires, designate
a member of its staff to perform the duty of researching, granting and
confirming coats of arms and such member shall use the appellation
Chief Herald of Ireland or, in the Irish language, Príomh Aralt na
hÉireann while performing such duties.
(end text)
When the previous Chief Herald retired in 2003 no grants were made
until May 2005 when the National Cultural Institutions Act, 1997 was
finally implemented by the Minister and therefore, given the current
economic circumstances (cutbacks etc) here in Ireland, it is unlikely
that a permanent position will be advertised (never mind filled) until
the legislation to amalgamate the national cultural institutions is
enacted. Such legislation may never see the light of day - could this
be the end of the road for the State's heraldic services???
However, on a more positive note - the prospect of new legislation
offers an opportunity for a long overdue examination of the State's
delivery of heraldic services.
Also, Section 20 (1) of the 1997 Act may be of interest:-
20.—(1) A member of a Board shall hold office for such period not
exceeding 5 years and on such other terms and conditions as the
Minister may determine when appointing him or her.
(end text)
So next year the current Board (including its committees) comes to the
end of its term of office ........... a new broom maybe????
Regards
Michael Merrigan
General Secretary
Genealogical Society of Ireland
www.familyhistory.ie |
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| Greg... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:01 am |
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On 18 Oct, 05:47, "David E. Cohen" <david_e_co... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: Remember the cloud?. . . It's still raining.
Since you insist on obscuring the obvious, I shall belabor the obvious in response.
There may well be a cloud over official state grants, but so what? It isn't a cloud over heraldry
itself. Even if the legislation is enacted in Ireland stating that the government shall have
nothing to do with heraldry, that will not mean heraldry will disappear there.
I apologize for what seems like sarcasim. My disappointment concerns
the OCHI. Rather than go out of their way to overcome doubts and root
out the weeds; they keep caving in. I'm feeling rather embarrassed
(for them). Heraldry in Ireland is fine old tradition that has great
deal of genealogical significance and its trust is not well maintained
in my view.
And BTW, there are no state grants. OCHI doesn't have that power. It
would be nice if they did, but with all of this, it seems more
unlikely. |
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| David E. Cohen... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:47 am |
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Quote: Remember the cloud?. . . It's still raining.
Since you insist on obscuring the obvious, I shall belabor the obvious in response.
There may well be a cloud over official state grants, but so what? It isn't a cloud over heraldry
itself. Even if the legislation is enacted in Ireland stating that the government shall have
nothing to do with heraldry, that will not mean heraldry will disappear there. |
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| GFL... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:41 am |
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On Oct 17, 6:08 pm, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote:
Quote: I haven't been around for a while, so I'm not sure if the following was
noted here:
'The Office of the Chief Herald is currently not accepting new
applications for grants or confirmations or arms owing to the retirement
of the Chief Herald. The application process will resume when a new
appointment has been made.'http://www.nli.ie/en/heraldry-introduction.aspx
This should be read in the context of the desperate cost-cutting plan to
merge the National Archives of Ireland and the Irish Manuscripts
Commission 'into' (not 'with') the National Library of Ireland. It
remains to be seen whether the heraldists' reserves of cunning and
reliance on forgetfulness concerning Mac Carthy Mór and related
entanglements are sufficient to see them survive in the new slimmed-down
body.
Sean Murphy
An Irish Arms Crisishttp://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/armscrisis.htm
PS Weariness caused me not to mark the tenth anniversary of Terence
MacCarthy's 'abdication' on 9 October 1999.
Chief Herald Gillespie has been contempolating retirement for some
time. There is no surprise in this and nothing else to read in. It is
simply a matter of waiting for the process of appointing his successor
to unfold.
Kind regards,
George Lucki |
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| Greg... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:03 pm |
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On Oct 19, 12:41 pm, GFL <georgelu... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On Oct 17, 6:08 pm, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote:
I haven't been around for a while, so I'm not sure if the following was
noted here:
'The Office of the Chief Herald is currently not accepting new
applications for grants or confirmations or arms owing to the retirement
of the Chief Herald. The application process will resume when a new
appointment has been made.'http://www.nli.ie/en/heraldry-introduction.aspx
This should be read in the context of the desperate cost-cutting plan to
merge the National Archives of Ireland and the Irish Manuscripts
Commission 'into' (not 'with') the National Library of Ireland. It
remains to be seen whether the heraldists' reserves of cunning and
reliance on forgetfulness concerning Mac Carthy Mór and related
entanglements are sufficient to see them survive in the new slimmed-down
body.
Sean Murphy
An Irish Arms Crisishttp://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/armscrisis.htm
PS Weariness caused me not to mark the tenth anniversary of Terence
MacCarthy's 'abdication' on 9 October 1999.
Chief Herald Gillespie has been contempolating retirement for some
time. There is no surprise in this and nothing else to read in. It is
simply a matter of waiting for the process of appointing his successor
to unfold.
Kind regards,
George Lucki- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Okay, that sounds reasonable. This then begs the question of why a
suspension of arms and their certifcates? Further, I think the point
Sean is trying to make, is that there still appears to be some kind of
subterfuge: a lot of shuffling.
From where would a successor be drawn? |
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| Michael Merrigan... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:39 pm |
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On Oct 19, 8:41 pm, GFL <georgelu... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On Oct 17, 6:08 pm, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote:
I haven't been around for a while, so I'm not sure if the following was
noted here:
'The Office of the Chief Herald is currently not accepting new
applications for grants or confirmations or arms owing to the retirement
of the Chief Herald. The application process will resume when a new
appointment has been made.'http://www.nli.ie/en/heraldry-introduction.aspx
This should be read in the context of the desperate cost-cutting plan to
merge the National Archives of Ireland and the Irish Manuscripts
Commission 'into' (not 'with') the National Library of Ireland. It
remains to be seen whether the heraldists' reserves of cunning and
reliance on forgetfulness concerning Mac Carthy Mór and related
entanglements are sufficient to see them survive in the new slimmed-down
body.
Sean Murphy
An Irish Arms Crisishttp://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/armscrisis.htm
PS Weariness caused me not to mark the tenth anniversary of Terence
MacCarthy's 'abdication' on 9 October 1999.
Chief Herald Gillespie has been contempolating retirement for some
time. There is no surprise in this and nothing else to read in. It is
simply a matter of waiting for the process of appointing his successor
to unfold.
Kind regards,
George Lucki
George, a Chara,
From all accounts you're absolutely correct, however, the process of
appointing a successor in these recessionary times may well be put on
the back burner. The economic circumstances here have resulted in a
recruitment embargo in the public service and therefore, it is highly
likely that if a successor is to be appointed it may well be after the
new legislation is enacted.
But then the whole reason for the new legislation i.e. the
amalgamation of the national cultural institutions etc., may well be
shelved or at the very least, put back for a number of years. Either
way, the future of the position of Chief Herald of Ireland looks very
far from secure unless a temporary arrangement involving the Director
of the National Library, for example, assuming the appellation 'Chief
Herald of Ireland' for operational purposes in accordance with Section
13 (2) of the National Cultural Institutions Act, 1997.
At the veary least such an arrangement would keep the position
functioning and an Irish heraldic service in existence.
Kindest regards,
Michael Merrigan
General Secretary
Genealogical Society of Ireland
www.familyhistory.ie |
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| Joseph McMillan... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:01 pm |
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On Oct 17, 8:08 pm, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote:
Quote:
PS Weariness caused me not to mark the tenth anniversary of Terence
MacCarthy's 'abdication' on 9 October 1999.
I'm sorry to hear that and hope Sean is feeling better. A pity he
couldn't commemorate the historic moment, given that many of us may
have forgotten about it in the month or so since he last reminded us.
When, oh when, is a new Alexander Pope going to step forward and
memorialize the epic fall of The Macarthy Mor as it deserves to be
told, in four or five cantos of heroic couplets?
Joseph McMillan |
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| Joseph McMillan... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:03 pm |
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On Oct 17, 8:08 pm, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net>
wrote:
Quote: PS Weariness caused me not to mark the tenth anniversary of Terence
MacCarthy's 'abdication' on 9 October 1999.
I'm sorry to hear that and hope Sean is feeling better. A pity he
couldn't commemorate the historic moment, given that many of us may
have forgotten about it in the month or so since he last reminded us.
When, oh when, is a new Alexander Pope going to step forward and
memorialize the epic fall of The Mac Carthy Mor as it deserves to be
told, in four or five cantos worth of heroic couplets?
Joseph McMillan |
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| Greg... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:41 pm |
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On 19 Oct, 18:03, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On Oct 17, 8:08 pm, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net
wrote:
PS Weariness caused me not to mark the tenth anniversary of Terence
MacCarthy's 'abdication' on 9 October 1999.
I'm sorry to hear that and hope Sean is feeling better. A pity he
couldn't commemorate the historic moment, given that many of us may
have forgotten about it in the month or so since he last reminded us.
When, oh when, is a new Alexander Pope going to step forward and
memorialize the epic fall of The Mac Carthy Mor as it deserves to be
told, in four or five cantos worth of heroic couplets?
Joseph McMillan
So Joe. Since no one knows as much as you do. Perhaps you might
enlighten us with a well researched and intelligently written article
on the subject of MacCarthy Mor and why the affair; that changed Irish
heraldry nad laid waste to some in the world of heraldry, as well as
setting up other to look ridiculous, should be forgotten.
You can also tell us how much you paid for an Irish certificate while
you're at it . . . $3000, $5,000 perhaps? Buyer's remorse got you
down?
Please Joseph McMillan: make your case and prove everybody wrong. |
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| Turenne... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:54 pm |
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Joseph McMillan wrote:
Quote:
When, oh when, is a new Alexander Pope going to step forward and
memorialize the epic fall of The Mac Carthy Mor as it deserves to be
told, in four or five cantos worth of heroic couplets?
Sean is the J.D.Salinger, Harper Lee or Margaret Mitchell of Irish
heraldists. Having written one great piece he never lets us forget
it...
Richard L |
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| Sean J Murphy... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:46 am |
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Joseph McMillan wrote:
Quote: On Oct 17, 8:08 pm, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote:
PS Weariness caused me not to mark the tenth anniversary of Terence
MacCarthy's 'abdication' on 9 October 1999.
I'm sorry to hear that and hope Sean is feeling better. A pity he
couldn't commemorate the historic moment, given that many of us may
have forgotten about it in the month or so since he last reminded us.
When, oh when, is a new Alexander Pope going to step forward and
memorialize the epic fall of The Macarthy Mor as it deserves to be
told, in four or five cantos of heroic couplets?
Joseph McMillan
And what a weary attempt at sarcasm! Like at least one other poster here
in the past, I could never understand why an individual so tainted by
association with the Mac Carthy Mór and allied scandals as Mr Gillespie
should have been appointed Chief Herald of Ireland. This did nothing for
the cause of Irish heraldry, which I admit to me is primarily a matter
of heritage and scholarship rather than vain efforts to enhance one's
prestige through pretence or cash payments.
Sean Murphy
Letter of Terence MacCarthy to (Acting) Deputy Chief Herald of Ireland
1991 http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/deputychletter.html |
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| Sean J Murphy... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:01 am |
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The following is offered in case anyone is curious as to the kind of
applications the Chief Herald of Ireland has been graciously pleased to
accept in the past:
(Start quote)
Arms of 'Mac Carthy Mór'
El Minzah, 85 Rue de la Liberte, Tangier, Kingdom of Morocco
Fergus Gillespie Esq, State Heraldic Museum, 2 Kildare Street, Dublin 2,
Eire
October 27th 1991
Dear Fergus,
My great uncle, The Maguire of Fermanagh, has
forwarded the draft pedigree which you have prepared for me. I have
examined it and I have the following comments to make.
With regard to my grandfather, who ob 1947, you should insert:
MacCarthy Mor, 1927-1947. This is important as he SUCCEEDED his cousin
Samuel Trant McCarthy, The MacCarthy Mor in 1927. Against my father you
should insert: MacCarthy Mor 1947-1980 which was the period of his
chiefship. Against my own name and title it should show MacCarthy Mor
1980-. There is no reason why these amendments should not be made as
they record facts. I have not become MacCarthy Mor through the Office's
recognition but SUCCEEDED to the title more than a decade ago. If I did
not insist on these particular amendments the pedigree would be a
published libel against my father and grandfather both of whom used the
title (indeed my grandfather was styled The MacCarthy Mor, Prince of
Desmond when he lived in Albania in the 1920's. He was a Knight of the
Black Eagle which order, the highest Albanian decoration, he received
from the late King Zog).
Regarding the pedigree you have dropped out a generation
between Domhnall Og and Ceallachan who ob 1613. Between these Lords of
Kerslawny came Cormac, Tiarna Chois Leamhna. Tadgh III na Mainstreach
King of Desmond ob in 1413 NOT 1428. Charles, son of Domhnall (ob 1752)
should also be shown as 'of Srugrena Abbey'.
In the most recent generations I wish you to insert 'of Paris
and Toulouse' against my great great grandfather, John, and 'of
Toulouse' against my great grandfather, James. They were educated in
these cities (and lived with Comte MacCarthy Reagh de Toulouse). I do
not wish to be described as 'of Belfast' as I am ONLY of 'Tangier in the
Kingdom of Morocco'. Belfast has such a notorious name I do not want it
spoiling my pedigree!
The pedigree has been commenced with King Domnall Mor Na Curra
who was, of course, the first MacCarthy Mor. I appreciate this point but
regret that it chops a thousand years of the State Registered Pedigrees
and leaves out one of my favourite ancestors King Cormac, who built
Cormac's Chapel on Cashel. A good solution would be to add the following
after Domnall's titles:
'Domnall Mor na Curra MacCarthaigh, MacCarthaigh Mor, Ri
Deasmhumhan: King of Desmond, ob 1206, grandson of Cormac MacCarthy,
King-Bishop of Munster who ob 1138, and great great grandson of
Carthach, King of Eoghanacht Cashel, from whom the surname MacCarthy is
derived. Domnall Mor na Curra was 20th in male line descent from Aongus,
King of Munster, who was baptised by St Patrick, circa AD 433, and 28th
in male line descent from Eoghan Mor, King of Munster, who ob ca 192
having established the Eoghanachta Dynasty.'
This addition is entirely agreeable with the Recorded Pedigrees
and makes it obvious King Domnall Mor na Curra MacCarthy Mor did not
just drop out of nowhere.
Now we come to the question of the arms to be shown on the
pedigree. I have long objected to Donal that the 'Esquire Helmet' which
the Office surmounts Chiefs' arms with is quite simply WRONG! For a
grantee of arms and the chief of an ancient royal house to be given the
same helmet is really very silly indeed. Accordingly I DO NOT WANT my
arms surmounted with a helmet AT ALL! Nor do I want to have the
'MacCarthy Mor' crest, an embowed arm holding a newt (which is MacCarthy
Reagh!) shown. The motto is LAMH LAIDIR ABU. I think that the simple
shield: Argent a stag trippant gules, armed and unguled or, should be
used surmounted by an antique crown proper. This has been the normal way
of displaying our arms for several centuries and I have previously sent
Donal copies of the arms of various branches of the French MacCarthys
using this crown (and indeed our supporters). The same crown is
illustrated, as you know, throughout the MS GENEALOGIE on display in
the Museum. It is neither novel nor strange. This crown is displayed on
the 15th century MacCarthy Mor tombstone in Muckross Abbey. It is a
'property right' and should be acknowledged as such.
Finally I can see no reason at all why the pedigree should not
show the FULL and PROPER title as MacCarthy Mor, Prince of Desmond. As
you are well aware in international law the head of a non regnant royal
house takes the next title below that of 'king', in this case prince.
You will see, from GENEALOGIE, that the style 'Prince of Desmond' was
used even by the British Crown. It is far more correct in this case than
the style 'MacDermot, Prince of Coolavin'. Coolavin was simply the seat
of MacDermot, he was in fact Prince of Moylurg! His title is silly and
would correspond to me calling myself 'Prince of Srugrena Abbey'!
You will see that Gray, in his MS on MacCarthy Mor, states
whoever is MacCarthy Mor is DE JURE KING OF DESMOND. I do not aspire to
such a thing being recorded on my pedigree but I cannot see why I should
forgo Prince of Desmond. Surely the Irish Republic's Genealogical Office
should find less difficulty in using such a Gaelic title than it does in
such British titles as that of Duke of Leinster, etc. The Republic
acknowledges these British-Irish titles because they were created by the
British Crown prior to the State's creation. My titles were created by
the Crown of Munster before the State's creation. There is no MORAL,
LEGAL or RATIONAL DIFFERENCE and it would be inexcusable of me not to
point this out.
To speed up this already long drawn out business can I ask you to
FAX me on Tangier 934546. Hopefully, then, the pedigree can be completed
within days of its final agreement and I can collect it in December.
THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR WORK ON THIS. I appreciate it!!!
Yours sincerely
Terence
The MacCarthy Mor, Prince of Desmond
(End quote)
The scholarship, the command of pedigree, the expertise in armory, the
encyclopedic knowledge of titles and orders, which together go to make
the perfect herald!
Sean Murphy
Letter of Terence MacCarthy to (Acting) Deputy Chief Herald of Ireland
1991 http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/deputychletter.html |
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| Sean J Murphy... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:06 am |
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Turenne wrote:
Quote: Joseph McMillan wrote:
When, oh when, is a new Alexander Pope going to step forward and
memorialize the epic fall of The Mac Carthy Mor as it deserves to be
told, in four or five cantos worth of heroic couplets?
Sean is the J.D.Salinger, Harper Lee or Margaret Mitchell of Irish
heraldists. Having written one great piece he never lets us forget
it...
Richard L
Termed the lowest form of wit with good reason. And what might the Chief
Heralds of Ireland have done with their time instead of servicing
fantasists and conmen? Why, they might have tried producing something
along the following lines:
'The Records of Ulster's Office',
http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/studies/ulster.pdf
Sean Murphy |
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