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| BRUCE... |
 Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:36 pm |
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Guest
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"It is imperative that test distance be stated, or the above is
meaningless"
Reading the article would have told you that they tested shotgun loads
at 12 feet from the muzzle to the first sheet of drywall.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:39 am |
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# In your case (being in Alaska) I would suggest switching out the slugs
# for Hornady SST slugs for bear and moose. With a velocity of 2000 fps
# and a muzzle energy of 2664 ft-lbl a well placed shot should stop any
# threat you encounter.
Why so, Bruce? The sub-caliber, light-for-diameter 12 ga SST is a
deer load intended for use only in rifled barrels. Without rifling
they will begin to tumble shortly after leaving the muzzle.
Smoothbore shotguns (which I suspect Bruce in Alaska is using) call
for traditional slugs, the best of which is arguably the Brenneke.
Unlike Hornady's deer load Brenneke's magnum slug is designed for
large and dangerous game. It weighs 1-3/8 ounce, leaves the muzzle at
1500 fps, and generates 3000 ft lbs. Being close to bore diameter,
they need not expand to do their work. They hold their shape on
impact (unlike American Foster style slugs) for serious penetration.
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| Gunny_2009... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:39 am |
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"Omelet" <ompomelet at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hbc9p3$jvd$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
# In article <hb8egi$o4q$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net>,
# BSquared <BtimesB at (no spam) Juno.com> wrote:
#
# # Also, and more important, your admonision to skip 00Buck or slugs
# # because of the possible (but not probable) injury to your neighbors
# # children effectively tells me that you think that I should care more
# # about protecting my neighbor's kids than my own during an invasion of
# # my home. Sorry! That isn't going to happen.
#
# Tell that to the jury if you do end up with collateral damage...
# --
Personally, I'll do just that. The REMOTE "probability" of anyone else
being harmed is offset by the higher probability of stopping the perp and
saving the lives of you and your family. The true dangers of multiple wall
penetrations and subsequent injuries to others has been blown out of all
proportions to reality until it has reached the level of urban myth where
just about every gun person you talk to refers to those dangers. Sure, they
exist in the realm of possibility, but I have never seen cited facts on the
dangers of their true Probabilities. If this wasn't true, you wouldn't
choose to use a firearm of any sort for defense because just about any
firearm/cartridge combination can pass through a body and hurt someone. The
reality is that it seldom happens and surely not nearly enough to dissuade
you from using the best defensive combinations you can find to protect
yourself. Think about it. In general, you live your life by the
Probabilities, not the possibilities.
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| BRUCE... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:04 am |
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Thanks
The Brenneke slug looks great, I'll check them out after work.
Don't however negate the efficacy of a 225 gr. bullet moving at 2000 fps
with 2700 ft-lbs of energy at close range
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| John Lemke... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:04 am |
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Gunny_2009 wrote:
#
# Personally, I'll do just that. The REMOTE "probability" of anyone else
# being harmed is offset by the higher probability of stopping the perp and
# saving the lives of you and your family. The true dangers of multiple wall
# penetrations and subsequent injuries to others has been blown out of all
# proportions to reality until it has reached the level of urban myth where
# just about every gun person you talk to refers to those dangers. Sure, they
# exist in the realm of possibility, but I have never seen cited facts on the
# dangers of their true Probabilities. If this wasn't true, you wouldn't
# choose to use a firearm of any sort for defense because just about any
# firearm/cartridge combination can pass through a body and hurt someone. The
# reality is that it seldom happens and surely not nearly enough to dissuade
# you from using the best defensive combinations you can find to protect
# yourself.
Agreed wholeheartedly while acknowledging that "know your backstop" is
one of the first, basic rules of firearm safety.
And if we know of anyone keeping a slug chambered in a 12 gauge next
to their bed, as I do, we should spend time dissuading them.
There is no controversy or question about the stopping power of
buckshot. There is plenty of question about birdshot. Why take the
risk?
00 isn't, of course, the only choice. #1 buck here. #4 the bare
minimum. 6 rounds in the magazine of the 870, 5 Foster slugs in a
stock sleeve for added flexibility outside if ever needed. No brown
bear in the vicinity.
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| Jim... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:13 pm |
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"John Lemke" <jflemke at (no spam) locallink.net> wrote in message
news:hbi2m5$otd$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
# Gunny_2009 wrote:
#
# And if we know of anyone keeping a slug chambered in a 12 gauge next
# to their bed, as I do, we should spend time dissuading them.
#
I keep slugs in mine, and no dissuasion is necessary or warranted.
I feel better being responsible for one projectile and its flight path, than
9 projectiles on an ever-expanding flight path.
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| Bruce in alaska... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:13 pm |
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In article <hbgfj2$frf$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net>, BAKMAN at (no spam) webtv.net (BRUCE)
wrote:
Nope, not interested... If I want to kill Moose, or other LARGE
Undulates, the Winchester isn't the weapon of choice, and I have many
Weapons to choose from, since I am also the local FFL. 45-70 in the
GuideGun would be more likely for Moose in the Front Yard.
<http://www.99850.net/Images/Moose1.JPG>
For Bears, http://www.99850.net/Images/Bears.JPG
Well now, actually we don't really need protection from them, except for
maybe about 2 months a year. Spring during late April and early May,
our local (local = 10 Sq. Miles) Black Bear population is down here
eating Grass & DandyLions, and getting plowed on the fermenting juices
in their tummys, and during late September and early October, when they
are after the Salmon in the Creek Bottoms, for Winter Fat, before
sleeping till next April. The rest of the summer the Blackies are all up
at elevation munching on the local Berry and Roots that make up 75% of
their diet. Brownies don't live here, as there isn't enough living food,
here for them to munch, to stay feed. We get one or two a year that are
traveling thru the neighborhood, (Neighborhood = 100 Sq Miles) moving
from one area to another, but that is about it, in this neighborhood.
In any case the load in the shotgun, is designed for Self-protection,
and NOT hunting, and is adequate to deal with ANY, and ALL,
circumstances, likely to be encountered in my local Neighborhood. We
also don't have to worry about Drive-Bys, as there aren't any roads that
connect to anywhere else, but we did have a ONE Float-By Shooting, about
20 years ago, and he ended up in Lemon Creek (local GrayBar Hotel) for
an extended Stay.
--
Bruce in alaska
add <path> after <fast> to reply
..
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| John Lemke... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:14 am |
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Jim wrote:
# "John Lemke" <jflemke at (no spam) locallink.net> wrote in message
# news:hbi2m5$otd$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
# # Gunny_2009 wrote:
# #
#
# # And if we know of anyone keeping a slug chambered in a 12 gauge next
# # to their bed, as I do, we should spend time dissuading them.
# #
#
# I keep slugs in mine, and no dissuasion is necessary or warranted.
#
# I feel better being responsible for one projectile and its flight path, than
# 9 projectiles on an ever-expanding flight path.
To each their own. I have nothing but admiration nowadays for mature,
responsible gun owners.
My only question here (friendly of course) would be slug (over)
penetration vs. 9 smallish projectile penetration. What's reasonable
and safe could depend on your local population density. The person
mentioned above with slugs (chambered/questionable) lives in an
apartment building.
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| Larry Caldwell... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:35 pm |
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In article <hbi2m5$otd$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net>, jflemke at (no spam) locallink.net (John
Lemke) says...
# There is no controversy or question about the stopping power of
# buckshot.
Just so. Buckshot performance is spotty. It certainly shouldn't be
relied on to stop anything. If you are very lucky, buckshot will
penetrate a vital organ, but you are just rolling the dice. You are as
likely to inflict a few flesh wounds that won't slow your target at all.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
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| Jim... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:28 am |
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"Larry Caldwell" <firstnamelastinitial at (no spam) peaksky.com> wrote in message
news:hble0c$hfi$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
# Just so. Buckshot performance is spotty. It certainly shouldn't be
# relied on to stop anything. If you are very lucky, buckshot will
# penetrate a vital organ, but you are just rolling the dice. You are as
# likely to inflict a few flesh wounds that won't slow your target at all.
Are you confusing birdshot with buckshot?
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| Jim... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:29 am |
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"John Lemke" <jflemke at (no spam) locallink.net> wrote in message
news:hbkuls$mr2$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
# My only question here (friendly of course) would be slug (over)
# penetration vs. 9 smallish projectile penetration. What's reasonable
# and safe could depend on your local population density. The person
# mentioned above with slugs (chambered/questionable) lives in an
# apartment building.
That may well be all the more reason to use single-projectile ammunition.
Perhaps a shotgun may not be the ideal choice in some situations, but some
people have to make do with what they have.
Since all risk cannot be avoided, the likelihood of exposing an innocent to
risk would mandate the use of the smallest area of risk. Buckshot, with
multiple projectiles, will pattern out to several feet across two
apartments with just sheetrock and wallpaper as obstacles. A slug, on the
other hand, maintains the exact same area of risk at the muzzle as it does
at 10 feet, 50 feet, or 50 yards, about ¾ of an inch.
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| Tom S.... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:49 pm |
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Long Ranger wrote:
# The chances of experiencing a home-invasion in the
# first place are about nil,
The chances of ANY break-in are minimal, but that certainly doesn't mean
"non-existent".
# and the chances of hammering through a wall and
# hitting an unintended victim are nil, unless there is a major festivity
# taking place in an adjacent room.
As with any situation, ANY AT ALL, you plan for your circumstances.
It's a major difference if you live in a very rural setting, a suburb,
or an apartment, if you're engaging people at 50 yards raiding your
chicken coop, or 10 feet in a small, narrow apartment hallway..\
With those variances in mind, you plan accordingly whether it's weapons
and ammunition, or vehicles you drive, wardrobe...
Point of notice: How come I (seemingly) always hear about gunfights
fought with old stuff, off the shelf, never with $2000 super-specific,
tricked out carry weapons, blah, blah, blah... ;-)
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| Larry Caldwell... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:49 pm |
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In article <hbn2al$vu9$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net>, JPQ3 at (no spam) cox.net (Jim) says...
#
#
# "Larry Caldwell" <firstnamelastinitial at (no spam) peaksky.com> wrote in message
# news:hble0c$hfi$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
#
# # Just so. Buckshot performance is spotty. It certainly shouldn't be
# # relied on to stop anything. If you are very lucky, buckshot will
# # penetrate a vital organ, but you are just rolling the dice. You are as
# # likely to inflict a few flesh wounds that won't slow your target at all.
#
#
# Are you confusing birdshot with buckshot?
Not at all. I just have the experience of hunting with buckshot. Even
at close range, 00 buckshot does not deliver a reliable kill. Once in a
while a deer will keel over, but more often than not they aren't wounded
severely enough to ever go down. I have stopped hunting with buckshot
because it is not effective enough to present a reliable kill. For
self-defense, you would be courting disaster. Stick with slugs.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
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| Gray Ghost... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:49 pm |
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My .02. We live on a farm and for basic defense I have an 18" 870 with
extension mag. I carry 3 00 in the mag with a side saddle containg 2 more 00,
2 slugs and 2 rubber buckshot loads.
My primay concern is predators coming after my birds and possibly my goats. I
have 2 biological alarms that live with the critters.
I chose this combo for these reasons.
The 00 is a sort of all around load, seeing as I'm not exactly sure what I'm
going to be up against and it may likely be a small predator. I have a light
mounted on the barrel, and I figure 00 buck is good enough for bagging small
predators, as long as I get one pellet in them they are dead or really
discouraged.
The slugs are for 2 legged predators, though having the 00 is in my mind an
acceptable first strike if I don't have time to push a slug into the tube. To
my thinling 9 32 cal. pellets arriving at about the same time between navel
and neck let alone 27 total ought to cause the person to reassess thier
priorities. A pistol is often carried as backup, too.
The rubber buck is for neighborhood dogs to curious about the birds, they
aren't bad dogs for the most part, just being dogs with less than bright
owners. Of course repeat offenders don't get the benefit of the doubt.
We also keep a 20 ga loaded with 7 1/2, mainly for daylight work against
snakes (damn oviraptors!) and the hawks that circle overhead but are kept at
bay by the biological alarms lest they suddenly decide to have a go at it,
though I'm not entirely sure, given the size of 'em if 7 1/2 is enough.
Snakes are more likely though, saw a 3' black snake sunning himself and
watching the yard. Made the mistake of going for the machete, the bastards
are a lot faster than you'd think.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Frank
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| John Lemke... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:49 pm |
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Long Ranger wrote:
# It's truly amazing how often this subject comes up and how long it continues
# when it does. I often wonder if it isn't broached every so often by some
# wise guy who then sits back and chuckles at all the verbiage committed to
# such a worn-out topic. The chances of experiencing a home-invasion in the
# first place are about nil, and the chances of hammering through a wall and
# hitting an unintended victim are nil, unless there is a major festivity
# taking place in an adjacent room.
I agree. The chances of my actually using my shotgun in a home
defense situation are close to nil. But we're all cognizant enough of
the possiblility to be prepared in one way or another.
Having said that and realizing that any words spoken here can,
someday, be used against someone by a prosecutor I'd simply say that
my intent in using a shotgun has little to do with fear of the bloody
result and much more to do with being absolutely decisive.
I'd have to ask here what loads are or were carried by patrol LEO.
What loads used in combat by American troops?
To each their own. Our immediate surroundings and conscience can and
should dicatate our choice. If you're comfortable with slugs, use 'em
and live with any consequences. Same with buckshot.
I'm happy and confident with what our local State Police use. #4 or
#1 buckshot.
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