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| Jim... |
 Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:56 pm |
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"BRUCE" <BAKMAN at (no spam) webtv.net> wrote in message
news:hbb0m3$pmk$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net...
#
#Surely you're not suggesting ANY person should fire a
# shotgun, with or without sights in a hostage situation.
That depends on a lot of factors, but slugs would be in order.
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| Ed... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:28 am |
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# "The devil is in the details"
#
# The details are that he reached into the police car and fired
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#
That was NOT clearly stated in the news story reported, but doesn't
really matter. The picture of the wounded officer clearly shows why he
was able to repsond, whether hit with #4 buck, or bird shot.... the
type of shot really had no baring on his ability to respond.
You people need to take a breath of reality. 2 oz. of lead coming
at an intruder from even 10 feet away is going to make very little
difference when it hits him, regardless of shot size.
I will concede that all this being equal for close in home defense
range, it would be prudent to keep larger shot in a home defense
shotgun.
Ed in Oregon
..
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| Omelet... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:28 am |
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In article <hb8egi$o4q$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net>,
BSquared <BtimesB at (no spam) Juno.com> wrote:
# Also, and more important, your admonision to skip 00Buck or slugs
# because of the possible (but not probable) injury to your neighbors
# children effectively tells me that you think that I should care more
# about protecting my neighbor's kids than my own during an invasion of
# my home. Sorry! That isn't going to happen.
Tell that to the jury if you do end up with collateral damage...
--
Peace! Om
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| BRUCE... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:58 am |
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"That was NOT clearly stated in the news story reported"
It was very clearly stated at the begining of the article:
"One man reached into the automobile, got on the hood of the car, and
shot the officer one time in the face with a sawed-off shotgun"
"You people need to take a breath of reality. 2 oz. of lead coming
at an intruder from even 10 feet away is going to make very little
difference when it hits him, regardless of shot size."
You couldn't be more wrong about shot size. The larger the pellet the
more the kenetic energy and terminal velocty, ergo more penetration. 00
buck at that range would probably have ripped his face (and maybe his
head) clean off. I don't see a 4 block chase after that.
9 pellets of 00 buck at 12-1300 fps at close range is an undeniable
manstopper
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| GeoW... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:46 am |
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On Oct 17, 10:58 am, BAK... at (no spam) webtv.net (BRUCE) wrote:
If you don't think pretty much any 12 ga load at home defense range is
effective, Sport, you need to give the puter a rest and go to the
range and shoot some stuff, 10'-20' +/-.
I feel you will be enlightened. :)
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| RD (The Sandman)... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:46 am |
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MNmineiro <rfraz28 at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in news:hb8eem$o3s$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net:
# On Oct 15, 8:34 am, BAK... at (no spam) webtv.net (BRUCE) wrote:
# > ...
#
# You can make a barrel just over 18" with a take-off barrel from a gun
# shop. I got one with a bulge at about 26" for $5.That and a hacksaw,
# and I had a nice, short barrel. Rounded the cut part, reinstalled the
# bead. If home defense means down the hallway, you don't need a rifle
# sight.
In an average home hallway, you don't need the bead either. ;)
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| Larry Caldwell... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:46 am |
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In article <hbc9ot$jv6$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net>, Huckleberry at (no spam) bigvalley.net
(Ed) says...
# You people need to take a breath of reality. 2 oz. of lead coming
# at an intruder from even 10 feet away is going to make very little
# difference when it hits him, regardless of shot size.
That's closer to 1 oz. of lead, Ed. However, anyone who is at all
confused should just set up a sheet of 3/4" plywood and bang away at it
from 10 or 15 feet with a 1 oz. trap load. Then they can draw their own
conclusions. If nothing else, it will demonstrate the need to aim a
shotgun carefully at short range.
Personally, I am not a fan of buckshot. I have shot far too many
animals with buckshot and had them just stroll away. With a cylinder
choke, a buckshot load would not be effective much past the range of
bird shot. If you really want to knock something down with a shotgun,
load a hollow point slug.
If I were looking for a cheap self-defense shotgun, I would buy a cheap
old Western Field or some such and saw the barrel off to 18.5" myself.
It would be cheaper than buying a barrel on gunbroker.com.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
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| BRUCE... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:42 pm |
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"If you don't think pretty much any 12 ga load at home defense range is
effective, Sport, you need to give the puter a rest and go to the range
and shoot some stuff, 10'-20' +/-. I feel you will be enlightened.  "
I have been there and done that "Sport" and so have the pro's
Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and
sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and
damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy
a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is
usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably
include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome,
shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially
if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue
crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure
there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.
Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or
smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot,
when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of
about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets
penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4
inches.
And lke I said, with thick or layered clothing less that that.
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| Ed... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:42 pm |
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# "That was NOT clearly stated in the news story reported"
#
# It was very clearly stated at the begining of the article:
#
# "One man reached into the automobile, got on the hood of the car, and
# shot the officer one time in the face with a sawed-off shotgun"
You call that clear? Please elaborate.... if he was reaching....
what was he "reaching" for? ... one doesn't "reach" when one is poking
a weapon at a person. Also, how does one reach into the car ( which
car?, by the way ), and then climb onto the hood to shoot... or if he
already shot, why was he climbing onto the hood. Not clear at all, to
me.
#
#
# "You people need to take a breath of reality. 2 oz. of lead coming
# at an intruder from even 10 feet away is going to make very little
# difference when it hits him, regardless of shot size."
#
# You couldn't be more wrong about shot size. The larger the pellet the
# more the kenetic energy and terminal velocty, ergo more penetration. 00
# buck at that range would probably have ripped his face (and maybe his
# head) clean off. I don't see a 4 block chase after that.
#
# 9 pellets of 00 buck at 12-1300 fps at close range is an undeniable
# manstopper
I would like to hear a second opinion from others on this.... there
is a wad behind that two ounces of lead, whatever its form. I fail to
see how terminal velocity of shot will be any difference, given
identical weight. I also fail to see how the kinetic energy of two
ounces of lead in any form wll be practically differenct at point blank
range.
I must remain in disagreement with you on this.
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| David R.Birch... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:01 am |
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# I would like to hear a second opinion from others on this.... there
# is a wad behind that two ounces of lead, whatever its form. I fail to
# see how terminal velocity of shot will be any difference, given
# identical weight. I also fail to see how the kinetic energy of two
# ounces of lead in any form wll be practically differenct at point blank
# range.
#
# I must remain in disagreement with you on this.
Until recently, I agreed with you.
<http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm>
From the second page:
"But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a
"safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be
effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to
penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't
penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop
bad guys.
Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means
that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy
and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side."
David
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| BRUCE... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:38 am |
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Thanks Dave, Takes feelings and opinions out of the mix. Actual tests
speak volumes.
The best line in the report was:
"Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot.
Use 00 Buck. It will do the job"
And
"Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is
birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?
We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated
through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in
the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is
that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round.
Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds"
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| Bruce in alaska... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:38 am |
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Guest
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In article <hbdvac$ien$1 at (no spam) news.albasani.net>, BAKMAN at (no spam) webtv.net (BRUCE)
wrote:
# Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or
# smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot,
# when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of
# about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets
# penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4
# inches.
#
# And lke I said, with thick or layered clothing less that that.
#
An interesting discussion.... I keep a Stainless 18.5" Winchester Pump
with Extended Tube Magazine sitting next to the Front Door of the cabin.
It is loaded with 00 Buck and Slugs, alternating thru the Mag, and a
single #9 Birdshot in the chamber. Been that way for the last 40 years,
and I see no reason to change the load now. There is no Mammal in North
America that will live, after being hit square with that loading, and I
have the #9 shot load for "Dusting" the backside of any unruly visitors,
either two, or four legged, before reaching the level of Deadly Force.
This is enough firepower, in my hand, to deal with ANY and ALL
situations where the problem is within 35 yards, and if the problem is
outside that range, it isn't a problem, in my eyes. Never had to use it,
but practice monthly, out the back door, just to maintain proficiency.
When the State Trooper first started coming round to visit, he would eye
the Shotgun, while sitting at the table drinking the proffered cup of
coffee, but now it is ignored, as is everything else laying around in
the cabin. We talked about the loading, some, and that is what he is
using, NOW, in his Ride-along weapon, on his ATV/Snowmobile while out
doing his rounds. He seemed to think it was entirely appropriate for his
needs. Just saying.....
--
Bruce in alaska
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| ishmale... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:55 pm |
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On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:46:50 +0000, Larry Caldwell wrote:
#
# Personally, I am not a fan of buckshot. I have shot far too many
# animals with buckshot and had them just stroll away. With a cylinder
# choke, a buckshot load would not be effective much past the range of
# bird shot. If you really want to knock something down with a shotgun,
# load a hollow point slug.
Agreed, but it was after 15' on the shooting range that I decided 00 buck
has too much spread.
#
# If I were looking for a cheap self-defense shotgun, I would buy a cheap
# old Western Field or some such and saw the barrel off to 18.5" myself.
# It would be cheaper than buying a barrel on gunbroker.com.
Maverick 88 Security, the barrel is already 18.5"
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| BRUCE... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:32 pm |
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Bruce in Alaska wrote:
"I keep a Stainless 18.5" Winchester Pump with Extended Tube Magazine
sitting next to the Front Door of the cabin. It is loaded with 00 Buck
and Slugs, alternating thru the Mag, and a single #9 Birdshot in the
chamber."
Even in Alaska that should handle any threat that approaches your door.
In your case (being in Alaska) I would suggest switching out the slugs
for Hornady SST slugs for bear and moose. With a velocity of 2000 fps
and a muzzle energy of 2664 ft-lbl a well placed shot should stop any
threat you encounter.
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| Ed... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:32 pm |
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#
# "Birdshot as a Defense Load
# I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is
# birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?
#
# We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated
# through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in
# the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is
# that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round.
# Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds"
It is imperative that test distance be stated, or the above is
meaningless. Bird shot is for shooting birds at good distance. Home
defense, on the other hand, probably involves distances under 10 - 15
feet... at least it should in the vast majority of cases.
Ed in Oregon
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