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| fatso... |
 Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:58 pm |
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http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤t=coinjointArms.jpg
The above conjoint Arms decorate a set of splendid Austro-Hungarian
cutlery originating from Vienna,
late XIX century. The silversmith was one V.Mayer, highly regarded
craftsman, in the employ of the
Imperial Court of Vienna. So, obviously, the receipients of his labours
must have been some important
pair of aristocrats. Who would they be? Any ideas?
fatso |
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| The Chief... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:58 pm |
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On Sep 25, 8:58 pm, fatso <fatso60... at (no spam) ntlworld.com> wrote:
Quote: http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤...
The above conjoint Arms decorate a set of splendid Austro-Hungarian
cutlery originating from Vienna,
late XIX century. The silversmith was one V.Mayer, highly regarded
craftsman, in the employ of the
Imperial Court of Vienna. So, obviously, the receipients of his labours
must have been some important
pair of aristocrats. Who would they be? Any ideas?
fatso
Dear "Fatso",
You have a second problem:
"The specified image does not exist"
Regards,
The Chief |
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| Greg... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:58 pm |
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On Sep 25, 8:58 pm, fatso <fatso60... at (no spam) ntlworld.com> wrote:
Quote: http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤...
The above conjoint Arms decorate a set of splendid Austro-Hungarian
cutlery originating from Vienna,
late XIX century. The silversmith was one V.Mayer, highly regarded
craftsman, in the employ of the
Imperial Court of Vienna. So, obviously, the receipients of his labours
must have been some important
pair of aristocrats. Who would they be? Any ideas?
fatso
My question would be; though the artisan demonstrated popularity, is
it necessary that this design is not assumed for the sake of art?
I'm learning that heraldry around the world was treated very casually;
for king and broom pusher alike, and it ocurrs that there has always
been costume jewlery. This kind of thing must have been happening long
before the Bucket Shop generation and I would say, that be the
evidence it would have been very widespread.
As I understand however, I'm I'm sure I'll be corrected, there were
some pretty stiff penalties for misuse. Iwould think as well that
there might other ways that assumed arms were used. It would make an
interesting history. |
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| Joseph McMillan... |
| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:55 am |
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On Sep 25, 11:58 pm, fatso <fatso60... at (no spam) ntlworld.com> wrote:
Quote: http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤...
The above conjoint Arms decorate a set of splendid Austro-Hungarian
cutlery originating from Vienna,
late XIX century. The silversmith was one V.Mayer, highly regarded
craftsman, in the employ of the
Imperial Court of Vienna. So, obviously, the receipients of his labours
must have been some important
pair of aristocrats. Who would they be? Any ideas?
Try this URL: http://tinyurl.com/y9592kz - easier to deal with.
Others here know a great deal more about Central European heraldry
than I do, but I would say that you seem to be making some unsafe
assumption about the arms, particularly that the format indicates a
married couple. As far as I know, quarterings and multiple helms and
crests in arms in areas of the former Holy Roman Empire do not
necessarily indicate a combination of pre-existing arms by marriage.
They might indicate a matrimonial alliance, but could also reflect the
inheritance or acquisition of additional feudal properties, holding of
an office, or even merely an untitled person's elevation to a barony
in the Briefadel. Two helms, for example, would be typical for a
baron or a hereditary knight. The barred helms also should suggest a
member of the nobility.
But that doesn't mean that the arms actually are those of such a
person--as far as I know there was never any enforcement of heraldic
laws in Austria in the sense of punishing someone for using arms that
were "above their station." It's quite possible that anyone with
enough money to commission work from a court silversmith could have
devised arms like these for himself and used them with impunity. The
late Carl Alexander von Volborth's "Heraldry: Customs, Rules, and
Styles" discusses the trend among many in the old nobility during the
late 19th century of simplifying arms back to their medieval format
precisely to disassociate themselves from the heraldic excesses of the
parvenus.
All that said, the arms look very familiar. They appear to have two
quarters with an arm issuing from a cloud in flank and holding a sheaf
of three arrows and the other two quarters with a dimidiated eagle.
Perhaps someone with access to Siebmacher will be able to find them;
my search of Rietstap didn't turn up anything, but I might well have
missed it.
Joseph McMillan |
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| Turenne... |
| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:12 am |
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The coat of arms granted to Amschel, Solomon, Carl, and James
Rothschild in 1816 by Francis II of Austria had as charges: a half
eagle and an arm bearing four arrows. The de Worms family, who were
kinsmen of the Rothschilds, had a hand grasping three arrows in their
coat of arms to represent the three de Worms brothers. Could these
arms be linked?
Richard Lichten |
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| Turenne... |
| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:39 pm |
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Joseph McMillan wrote:
Quote:
Doh! Guess that's why this looked familiar!
Easy one to miss Joseph! Do you think that the arms are the
Rothschild's?
Richard |
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| Odysseus... |
| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:44 pm |
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In article
<beda8892-d224-4799-9731-096e17633bd0 at (no spam) x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
The Chief <The_Chieftain at (no spam) att.net> wrote:
<snip>
Quote: "The specified image does not exist"
Check the link as shown in your browser's address field for missing
characters at the end; you were probably caught by text wrap. Or click
the TinyURL Joseph provided, quoted below.
In article
<a4a1c9ad-3f5a-4fda-8fbd-38da2b71ad50 at (no spam) g6g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>,
Joseph McMillan <mcmillanndu at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
--
Odysseus |
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| Turenne... |
| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:42 pm |
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Joseph McMillan wrote:
Quote:
No, because they lack the key element: the red inescutcheon with the
silver targe on it. Without it, the arms don't say "rot(h) Schild."
The Austrian Herald's College made life difficult for the Rothschilds.
They said that, as untitled nobility, the Rothschilds could have a
helmet but not a coronet. The eagle alluded to Austria, the lion to
Hesse-Kassel, and the leopard to England: the College said it was not
in its power to use charges from other sovereign countries' arms. The
5 arrows symbolize the 5 brothers: but since Nathan was excluded (he
was British) they could only have 4 arrows. The supporters were
rejected, **as well as the inescutcheon**, as the privilege of the
titled nobility. A patent for the modified arms was finally granted
on March 25, 1817.
Richard L |
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| fatso... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:47 pm |
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Howard wrote:
Gentlemen, many thanks for your interest and replies.
It so happens that the financial storm in the USA has allowed the above
set of silverware
to come to the surface and I have scooped it up, gratefully, on ebay. I
have remained ever since
in awe to the puzzling conjoint Arms. The Noble Count, a member of the
religious Order in the
USA, has volunteered to solve the problem for me- and failed evidently
as I have not heard from
him again. I have spent some hours searching the list of the Provinces
of Austro-Hungarian Empire
and tried to match their Arms to the putative owners of my cutlery. To
no avail, alas.
The Rothschilds would fit in splendidly here, I think. I have the
problem with them, though: they were Jewish
wheeler-dealers of distinction, not short of the bob or two. Why would a
Rothschild have to go to the pawn shop
or some such establishement in order to raise a miserly thousand dollars
or so for my dozen of spoons and forks?
The plot thickens as they say.
As an easy to solve puzzle, please have a look at this Coat of Arms,
adorning my other treasured set:
http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤t=BrunswickArms.jpg
It does carry the House Order of Heinrich der Lowe and the Order of the
Garter.
Who did it belong to, before it did fall into my unworthy lap?
fatso |
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| Turenne... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:55 am |
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fatso wrote;
Quote: ...in matrimony betwen one of those names: de Worms, Rothschild and Pirbright.
I'm sure I mentioned that a month ago.
Pirbright is the territorial designation Henry de Worms chose when he
was created a baron in 1895. Pirbright was a grandson of Nathan Meyer
Rothschild.
http://normandyhistorians.co.uk/aandp18.html
Richard L |
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| fatso... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:19 am |
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fatso wrote:
Quote: Howard wrote:
Gentlemen, many thanks for your interest and replies.
It so happens that the financial storm in the USA has allowed the
above set of silverware
to come to the surface and I have scooped it up, gratefully, on ebay.
I have remained ever since
in awe to the puzzling conjoint Arms. The Noble Count, a member of the
religious Order in the
USA, has volunteered to solve the problem for me- and failed evidently
as I have not heard from
him again. I have spent some hours searching the list of the Provinces
of Austro-Hungarian Empire
and tried to match their Arms to the putative owners of my cutlery. To
no avail, alas.
The Rothschilds would fit in splendidly here, I think. I have the
problem with them, though: they were Jewish
wheeler-dealers of distinction, not short of the bob or two. Why would
a Rothschild have to go to the pawn shop
or some such establishement in order to raise a miserly thousand
dollars or so for my dozen of spoons and forks?
The plot thickens as they say.
As an easy to solve puzzle, please have a look at this Coat of Arms,
adorning my other treasured set:
http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤t=BrunswickArms.jpg
It does carry the House Order of Heinrich der Lowe and the Order of
the Garter.
Who did it belong to, before it did fall into my unworthy lap?
fatso
I have included a better picture of the Arms in the original question:
http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤t=AusHung1a.jpg
Google does seem to provide the answer in the Jewish Encyclopaedia: it
seems to be a union
in matrimony betwen one of those names: de Worms, Rothschild and Pirbright.
fatso |
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