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| Nathaniel Taylor... |
 Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:02 pm |
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In article
<f6af0ae6-3541-4d6c-81c9-97e8b053a908 at (no spam) z34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
Joseph McMillan <mcmillanndu at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: Regarding the term "ad hominem," we must turn to Inigo Montoya in The
Princess Bride: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means
what you think it means."
Hey, I quoted Iñigo on Usenet just a few months ago -- but I think it
was another group. Similar context, though.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/ |
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| Greg... |
| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:52 pm |
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On Sep 22, 11:53 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: I'm changing the subject line so Sean doesn't feel the need to keep
reminding us that we've moved on from the silly schlub who calls
himself Baron Castleshorts.
Instead I'd like to adduce two comments from the movies that bear on
the ancillary discussion:
Regarding setting the rules for debate, this is rec.heraldry. As
Harvey Logan observes in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: "Rules?
In a knife-fight? No rules!"
Regarding the term "ad hominem," we must turn to Inigo Montoya in The
Princess Bride: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means
what you think it means."
And finally, to quote Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about
that."
See Joe? I knew you couldn't ignore me. No rules you say? The you
admit that you can't play by them...
But you still haven't answered the 3 questions. Under your "no rules"
theory this means that I can go at you with any ad-hominem I choose.
Though, I don't choose to. |
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| Nick B II... |
| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:53 pm |
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On Sep 21, 6:21 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
Quote:
Niick? I asked three questions of Joe McMillan, how does that
translate into a claim?
They were leading questions. One is impossible to answer with any real
precision, and the other two have no rational answer. For the record
your questions and their answers:
Quote: Now, Joe. How many years - did heraldry, exist in Ireland? To whom
was it usually attributed? From whence did it derive?
Heraldry came to Ireland around the same time it came to the rest of
Europe. If you want a really precise date you're probably gonna have
to go with the arrival of Strongbow in 1170, but that's debatable.
It's not like the Irish weren't using heraldry-like symbols before, or
Strongbow-era Normans had fully developed the art. Thus the closest
thing we can find to an answer to your first question is 839 years and
counting.
Just as other styles of art are not attributed to any single person,
heraldry was not attributed to anyone in particular in Ireland.
Individual coats would be attributed to someone, usually the founder
of a family or one of it's more prominent members, but heraldry itself
was simply a form of art used to identify people. Especially on the
battlefield.
Just as heraldry cannot be attributed to any individual, it cannot be
said to derive from any individual.
Nick |
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| Andrew Chaplin... |
| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:32 pm |
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Sean J Murphy <sjbmurphy at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote in
news:xX8um.30140$j7.493413 at (no spam) news.indigo.ie:
He's a silly bugger and would do well to stay on the other side of the
Atlantic.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) |
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| Graham... |
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:38 am |
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On 22 Sep, 19:45, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote:
I would arrive at dawn in a tank (in fact, my tank would be hidden in
bushes well before dawn). Forget the pistols! |
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| David E. Cohen... |
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:52 am |
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Don't you know it all came from England? England, England, and only England!
And the moment Ireland was no longer under the jurisdiction of the College
of Arms, heraldry disappeared from Ireland like beer from an open admission
frat party.
"Nick B II" <nicholasiii at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c93c4468-bb0c-47b9-b4d0-268ac684fdae at (no spam) d34g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 21, 6:21 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
Quote:
Niick? I asked three questions of Joe McMillan, how does that
translate into a claim?
They were leading questions. One is impossible to answer with any real
precision, and the other two have no rational answer. For the record
your questions and their answers:
Quote: Now, Joe. How many years - did heraldry, exist in Ireland? To whom
was it usually attributed? From whence did it derive?
Heraldry came to Ireland around the same time it came to the rest of
Europe. If you want a really precise date you're probably gonna have
to go with the arrival of Strongbow in 1170, but that's debatable.
It's not like the Irish weren't using heraldry-like symbols before, or
Strongbow-era Normans had fully developed the art. Thus the closest
thing we can find to an answer to your first question is 839 years and
counting.
Just as other styles of art are not attributed to any single person,
heraldry was not attributed to anyone in particular in Ireland.
Individual coats would be attributed to someone, usually the founder
of a family or one of it's more prominent members, but heraldry itself
was simply a form of art used to identify people. Especially on the
battlefield.
Just as heraldry cannot be attributed to any individual, it cannot be
said to derive from any individual.
Nick |
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| Greg... |
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:55 pm |
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On 22 Sep, 18:53, Nick B II <nicholas... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On Sep 21, 6:21 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
Niick? I asked three questions of Joe McMillan, how does that
translate into a claim?
They were leading questions. One is impossible to answer with any real
precision, and the other two have no rational answer. For the record
your questions and their answers:
Now, Joe. How many years - did heraldry, exist in Ireland? To whom
was it usually attributed? From whence did it derive?
Not leading at all. Thats' what (you) want to think.
a: when did it begin in Ireland and how long did it last until it lost
it's sanction?
b: Who was it, that was represented by heraldic display in 1169? de
Clare? Nope.
c: From where did the heraldic display that was transfered to Ireland
originate?
That's a geographic reference. Pembroke? you would be wrong again.
hinthint-- think of the person who ordered de clare to go over there
to attend to Macdermitt in the first place
Spain came later, so they don't count.
Quote: Heraldry came to Ireland around the same time it came to the rest of
Europe. If you want a really precise date you're probably gonna have
to go with the arrival of Strongbow in 1170, but that's debatable.
It's not like the Irish weren't using heraldry-like symbols before, or
Strongbow-era Normans had fully developed the art. Thus the closest
thing we can find to an answer to your first question is 839 years and
counting.
Who says that de Clare's entrance with heraldic display, derived from
the crusade of 1096, was not not the first expample of what became
heraldry in Ireland, and what evidence do they offer: think in terms
of herladry as it was known in western Europe and who introduced de
Clare to Wexford.
I'm not leading here, I'm suggesting. You say something else was
introduced that (might be) heraldic. Again, what evidence do you
offer?
Quote: Just as other styles of art are not attributed to any single person,
heraldry was not attributed to anyone in particular in Ireland.
Individual coats would be attributed to someone, usually the founder
of a family or one of it's more prominent members, but heraldry itself
was simply a form of art used to identify people. Especially on the
battlefield.
This is irrlevent to the three questions.
Quote: Just as heraldry cannot be attributed to any individual, it cannot be
said to derive from any individual.
Nick
Again, you last statement shows that you really don't understand the
questions at all. It is often better to to ask for clarrification if
it's needed, rather than venturing out on limb adn showing people you
really don't grasp the questions your answering.
It can also be bad form to insert yourself intop a conversation,
playing the know it all, when someone else has been challenged on
points of information.
Joesph McMillan (mr. history perfect) doesn't know this stuff: that's
why I asked him these questions and that's why he's not answering.
Now, if it's all the same to you Nick, I'd rather discuss the thread
topic.
Start another thread on Irish heraldry and we can go on there. |
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| Joseph McMillan... |
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:08 am |
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On Sep 23, 11:11 pm, "David E. Cohen" <david_e_co... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: Reasoned and civil arguments against your positions are called 'ad hominem'
and railed against, yet you feel you can insult people and personally attack
them with impunity.
David,
Substance aside (and why should we start worrying about substance at
this late date?), there are two points of newsgroup custom that would
make your excellent posts easier to read:
1. Don't "top post"--quote the message you're responding to first,
then give your response.
2. Set whatever program you're using so that it automatically inserts
the little > thingies (see above) at the beginning of each line you're
responding too. If you're reading and replying through Google groups
it will do this automatically, or at least it does for me. If you're
doing it through your email program there should be an option you can
set somehow.
Please carry on. |
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| David E. Cohen... |
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:14 pm |
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Quote: "Joseph McMillan" <mcmillanndu at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bda99007-d2da-492d-8bdb-97fe94de5117 at (no spam) a6g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 23, 11:11 pm, "David E. Cohen" <david_e_co... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Reasoned and civil arguments against your positions are called 'ad hominem'
and railed against, yet you feel you can insult people and personally attack
them with impunity.
David,
Substance aside (and why should we start worrying about substance at
this late date?), there are two points of newsgroup custom that would
make your excellent posts easier to read:
1. Don't "top post"--quote the message you're responding to first,
then give your response.
2. Set whatever program you're using so that it automatically inserts
the little > thingies (see above) at the beginning of each line you're
responding too. If you're reading and replying through Google groups
it will do this automatically, or at least it does for me. If you're
doing it through your email program there should be an option you can
set somehow.
Please carry on.
For *you*, I'll try and make the effort. |
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| David E. Cohen... |
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:58 pm |
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Quote: Well David, you finally popped: see how it is when people choose (you)
over the subject. Makes you mad doesn't it.
Now you know what I go through. Most of these people antagonize
intentionally. The difference here is that you call a spade a spade.
So you consistently acting like an ass is supposed to educate everyone? Oh please. You are just so
tiresome.
Quote: It's not what I say. This is proven by the many many threads: of (any)
subject, that I have participated in. The trouble is that there a
handful of "True Believers" who just don't like me period and as on
the HSS and then again on AHS forums, these few intentionally provoke
and keep it up because of my views on Baronies and because Joe
McMillan and I don't agree on the use of heraldic images in the US. I
didn't say anything untoward on the AHS, they just got wond of the
article I wrote on the HSS and panicked. (The board of governers had
to convene about [me]???)
Am I that important?
Exactly. It isn't what you say. It is how you say it. I'll leave it to people who were in the
thick of what went on at the HSS to comment about your being tossed from there. Before I continue,
let me state that I am not a shill for the AHS. I am not even a member, much less on their board of
directors. Regarding the AHS, I can't imagine that you thought your view, that there is no such
thing as heraldry in America, would be well received. That said, if you didn't consistently act
like an ass in your participation in their forum, you would almost certainly still be allowed to
participate in the forum. There are other members and registered users there who frequently
disagree, sometimes strongly, with certain board members and other honchos at the AHS, but somehow
they manage to avoid getting banned. I am willing to bet they knew about you and the HSS, but you
were on the AHS forum quite a while. I think that 'panicked' is probably an exceedingly unlikely
characterization of their reaction to your behavior. From what I know about the organization, they
run things fairly, deliberately, and in a consistent manner according to their rules, so yes, they
probably had to 'convene' (online, I'm sure) to deal with the annoyance you were causing. "Are you
that important?" What a straight line! I am willing to bet you won't be a topic of conversation on
the forum there any time soon, nor will your views, which as far as I can tell, no one there agrees
with. That said, I am not aware of any of your posts being deleted, which they could certainly do
if you 'panicked' them.
As far as the subject of Baronies is concerned, it is only connected to heraldry in the weakest way
(as I understand it, the issue is whether or not a Scottish feudal Baron can add 'extra stuff' to
their achievement), and while slightly interesting, at a very esoteric level, why does it even need
to be discussed here for more than a post or two? To me it is forum-clogging spam that belongs on
the newsgroups discussing nobility, *which isn't heraldry*. If people want to blow enough money to
feed a starving village in Somalia for a year so they can be the 'Baron of Brigadoon', I don't care
one way or the other. It's their money and they can spend it as they wish. If Brian Hamilton sells
these titles, unless he is lying about what he is selling, I don't care if he retires a rich man or
goes broke. Even if he is lying about it, that isn't a terribly relevant topic for this newsgroup.
Quote: Ad-hominem? How many times have I asked, just in the last couple of
weeks that these guys please not resort to it? Joe McMillan, (on the
vanguard of class) says, "There are no rules in kinife fight".
Brilliant.
So, we make do as best we can don't we.
From what I have seen, the nastiness usualy starts on your side of the conversation. People are
just responding in kind.
Quote: Read this very thread David: I posted, and noted that because of
people like the Castleshort and Terrance MacCarthy, Irish herladry has
a cloud over it. As usual, it's Joe McMillan who jumps in anad starts
a fight. Sean Murphy even agreed with me!
There may be a cloud over Irish heraldry because of buffoons and con men like Castleshort and
MacCarthy, though the cloud lies more over the clan/chieftain system, which is of course *not
heraldry*, though I suppose it is tangentially related. There are jerks like that everywhere,
including where heraldry is sanctioned and regulated by the state/sovereign, so similar clouds are
floating around all over. But the mere existence of these miscreants does not delegitimize Irish
heraldry as a whole, as you seem to want others to believe. More serious was the mess made due to
badly written and misinterpreted enabling legislation, which evidently has already been partially
fixed--and it seems the process is ongoing. But even with that problem, it ultimately doesn't
matter, because as has been stated ad nauseum (though obviously it needs repeating), sanction and
regulation by a state or a sovereign does not define heraldry, and the absence of such sanction or
regulation does not make heraldry any less legitimate. Hurray for assumption! |
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| Greg... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:53 pm |
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On 25 Sep, 13:46, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On Sep 25, 3:38 pm, Nick B II <nicholas... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
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I don't believe Joe, an ethnic Scot who specializes in US Heraldry,
has ever claimed to be an expert on early Irish heraldry.
This is true, but not the principal reason for my declining to address
the questions. For that, see my final response, dated 17 September at
9:11 a.m., EDT, in the thread entitled "David Cohen's Opinion."
Joseph McMillan
Ya still can't do it can ya. |
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| Greg... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:01 pm |
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On 25 Sep, 19:32, "David E. Cohen" <david_e_co... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: Well. You've obviously not re-read the thread: too much work, I
know.... So you're going to maintain your postition. That's rather
telling.
I read it once. That was one time too many.
Like I said; The AHS has nothing with which to hang their charge on
and they know that. All anyone has to do is look in on the ladt
thread: like this one, to see who really starts the trouble.
Since part of the reason for your banning was evidently private messages going back and forth,
rather than public posts on the AHS forum, I am afraid I need to believe one side or the other to
some extent on faith. Given what I have observed of you, and of the people in charge of the AHS
forum, I concluded that they are more believable than you are.
The HSS. I said here a long time ago: I made an intentionally
incendiary post becasue I had reached my limit - that was the plan.
Alex Maxwell Findlater knew that as well, that's I posted it to him -
there was a message in doing that too...
All you have to do is ask anyone at the HSS: they'll tell you anything
you want to know about me. They've know me (intimately) for over ten
years: my family, my personal motivations, my politics, exactly why I
do what I do and work where I work, my religion, etc etc. Just ask
'em, they'll tell ya anything you want to know.
So you planned to thrown out ot another group by behaving like an ass. You have been honing your
craft for quite some time, I see. As far as hearing all the details, since I get a barrel full of
this crap here, why would I want to get into it somewhere else? And hear about your personal life
from a bunch of other people? Sorry, I'd rather hear about heraldry.
I have nothing to defend.
Agreed. LOL
Your such droll individual who can't back anything up. You're weak
David Cohen.
Do me a big favor: don't reply to me anymore. I'm sure a smart guy
like you can manage that. But then again, Joe McMIllan can't do it. |
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| Greg... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:04 pm |
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On 22 Sep, 11:14, Graham <gra... at (no spam) gmilne.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Yeah, I know what you mean. Isn't there some sort of post office or
something where these guys can have their pictures displayed?
Ya'know, a public warning device... |
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| David E. Cohen... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:05 pm |
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Quote: Your reading of the Irish situation as a 'mess made due to badly
written and misinterpreted enabling legislation, which evidently has
already been partially fixed--and it seems the process is ongoing' is
not quite correct.
I gladly defer to you and others with more knowledge of, and far greater interest in, the subject.
The point I made when mentioning the matter is still valid. Even thought there was for a good long
while in Ireland no legally proper regulation of heraldry, heraldry didn't magically disappear. |
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| David E. Cohen... |
| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:32 pm |
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Quote: Well. You've obviously not re-read the thread: too much work, I
know.... So you're going to maintain your postition. That's rather
telling.
I read it once. That was one time too many.
Quote: Like I said; The AHS has nothing with which to hang their charge on
and they know that. All anyone has to do is look in on the ladt
thread: like this one, to see who really starts the trouble.
Since part of the reason for your banning was evidently private messages going back and forth,
rather than public posts on the AHS forum, I am afraid I need to believe one side or the other to
some extent on faith. Given what I have observed of you, and of the people in charge of the AHS
forum, I concluded that they are more believable than you are.
Quote: The HSS. I said here a long time ago: I made an intentionally
incendiary post becasue I had reached my limit - that was the plan.
Alex Maxwell Findlater knew that as well, that's I posted it to him -
there was a message in doing that too...
All you have to do is ask anyone at the HSS: they'll tell you anything
you want to know about me. They've know me (intimately) for over ten
years: my family, my personal motivations, my politics, exactly why I
do what I do and work where I work, my religion, etc etc. Just ask
'em, they'll tell ya anything you want to know.
So you planned to thrown out ot another group by behaving like an ass. You have been honing your
craft for quite some time, I see. As far as hearing all the details, since I get a barrel full of
this crap here, why would I want to get into it somewhere else? And hear about your personal life
from a bunch of other people? Sorry, I'd rather hear about heraldry.
Quote: I have nothing to defend.
Agreed. LOL |
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