'However, during the period he was the MacCarthy Mor and prior to his
abdication and self-imposed exile ..."

On Sep 4, 8:11 am, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote
quoting Mr. Shortt:



'However, during the period he was the MacCarthy Mor and prior to his
abdication and self-imposed exile ..."

Brilliant!  Terence McCarthy/McCartney was never discredited at all;
he merely abdicated.  So all the titles he granted are just as valid
as those of any other now-deposed monarch.  Imagine such ingenuity
applied to worthwhile ends...the mind boggles.

Joseph McMillan

...and people wonder

why "Irish heraldry" remains under a cloud

why the Irish won't go for spending a dime

on state sanction

On Sep 14, 12:09 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:



...and people wonder

What people?

why "Irish heraldry" remains under a cloud

What cloud?

why the Irish won't go for spending a dime

The National Library of Ireland receives something like €13 million a
year in state funds.  The Chief Herald's office is part of the
National Library.

on state sanction

What is your standard of what constitutes "state sanction" and how and
why is it different from that of the Attorney General of Ireland?

Joseph McMillan

...and people wonder
What people?

The whole of the Irish people Joe.

why "Irish heraldry" remains under a cloud
What cloud?

A cloud of ilegitimacy Joe.

why the Irish won't go for spending a dime
The National Library of Ireland receives something like €13 million a
year in state funds.  The Chief Herald's office is part of the
National Library.

The National Library receives the funds... Not the Chief Herald. He
gets an allowance with which he raises money for the library.  The
Chief herald himsel knows he cannot grant arms: he sells
certificates...

Are you sure that the Chief Herald (who is concurrently the head of

on state sanction

What is your standard of what constitutes "state sanction" and how and
why is it different from that of the Attorney General of Ireland?

State sanction is a phrase that mens exactly what it says Joe.  I
don't remember reading the AG was in charge of the National Library.

On Sep 15, 10:00 am, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:



...and people wonder
What people?

The whole of the Irish people Joe.

Really?  What evidence to you have that the whole of the Irish people,
or even half of them, are the least interested in this subject?



why "Irish heraldry" remains under a cloud
What cloud?

A cloud of ilegitimacy Joe.

How is an office operating under statutory authority illegitimate?

why the Irish won't go for spending a dime
The National Library of Ireland receives something like €13 million a
year in state funds.  The Chief Herald's office is part of the
National Library.

The National Library receives the funds... Not the Chief Herald. He
gets an allowance with which he raises money for the library.  The
Chief herald himsel knows he cannot grant arms: he sells
certificates...

Are you sure that the Chief Herald (who is concurrently the head of
the genealogical section of the library) doesn't receive a salary?  A
salary paid for by the Irish taxpayers pursuant to appropriations
passed by the Irish parliament?



on state sanction

What is your standard of what constitutes "state sanction" and how and
why is it different from that of the Attorney General of Ireland?

State sanction is a phrase that mens exactly what it says Joe.  I
don't remember reading the AG was in charge of the National Library.

Do you remember reading that the AG is the chief law officer of the
Irish Republic, whose opinions on the legality of the operations of
institutions of the Irish state are a damn sight more authoritative
than yours?  Or mine or Sean Murphy's, for that matter?

And do you remember reading that he has formally advised the
government and parliament that the operations of the Office of the
Chief Herald pursuant to the National Cultural Institutions Act are
fully lawful?

Joseph McMillan

And the chief herald of Ireland receiving a salary, is really no
different than any employee receiving a salary: he can be done away
with by the stroke of pen and (you know that).

It's really hard to carry on a discussion with someone who seems

On Sep 4, 8:11 am, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote
quoting Mr. Shortt:



'However, during the period he was the MacCarthy Mor and prior to his
abdication and self-imposed exile ..."

Brilliant!  Terence McCarthy/McCartney was never discredited at all;
he merely abdicated.  So all the titles he granted are just as valid
as those of any other now-deposed monarch.  Imagine such ingenuity
applied to worthwhile ends...the mind boggles.

Joseph McMillan

If the relevant heraldic authority, acting on behalf of the state and
within its powers, accepted these titles as valid in law then they are
valid in law. If the authorities got it wrong that is their problem;
people are entitled to rely on the state to get it right. There is a
parallel here in England with a writ of summons issued in error, which
was held to create a new peerage.
Congratulations, Baron Castleshort.

On Sep 15, 7:49 pm, Greg <scoti... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:

And the chief herald of Ireland receiving a salary, is really no
different than any employee receiving a salary: he can be done away
with by the stroke of pen and (you know that).

It's really hard to carry on a discussion with someone who seems
incapable of remembering what he says from one day to the next.Yesterday you wrote:  "the Irish won't go for spending a dime on state

sanction" of heraldry.  My point--good  God, why do I bother?--was
that the Irish are in fact spending many dimes on sanctioned
heraldry.  Is this really such a difficult concept?

Joseph McMillan

On 4 Sep, 18:06, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On Sep 4, 8:11 am, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote
quoting Mr. Shortt:




'However, during the period he was the MacCarthy Mor and prior to his
abdication and self-imposed exile ..."

Brilliant! Terence McCarthy/McCartney was never discredited at all;
he merely abdicated. So all the titles he granted are just as valid
as those of any other now-deposed monarch. Imagine such ingenuity
applied to worthwhile ends...the mind boggles.

Joseph McMillan


If the relevant heraldic authority, acting on behalf of the state and
within its powers, accepted these titles as valid in law then they are
valid in law. If the authorities got it wrong that is their problem;
people are entitled to rely on the state to get it right. There is a
parallel here in England with a writ of summons issued in error, which
was held to create a new peerage.
Congratulations, Baron Castleshort.

On 16 Sep, 10:58, "gra... at (no spam) gmilne.demon.co.uk"

gra... at (no spam) gmilne.demon.co.uk> wrote:
If the relevant heraldic authority, acting on behalf of the state and
within its powers, accepted these titles as valid in law then they are
valid in law. If the authorities got it wrong that is their problem;
people are entitled to rely on the state to get it right. There is a
parallel here in England with a writ of summons issued in error, which
was held to create a new peerage.
Congratulations, Baron Castleshort.

I'm not convinced.  If the Irish authorities issued Letters Patent
"creating" the McCarthy Mor then there would be a direct parallel.
However, the title already existed and was fraudulently claimed by
McCarthy.  The fact that the relevant heraldic authority was duped
does not make the titles valid in law ad infinitum.  Once the fraud
was exposed the recognition, titles etc became null and void.

Perhaps another parallel is that if you receive/buy property, albeit
in good faith, that had been stolen, the property still belongs in law
to the original owner.

Now whether or not the recipients of such titles have a case against
the Irish authorities is another matter.

Stephen

Sorry, he was recognized by the state and that's it. There is no
parallel with stolen property but there is a direct parallel (it
couldn't be better) with writs of summons issued in error. If the
recognition had in some way affected the rights of other people to
their detriment then there may be some argument against it, but it
didn't. Whether he is a baron or not has no possible effect on anyone.

On 4 Sep, 18:06, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On Sep 4, 8:11 am, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote
quoting Mr. Shortt:

'However, during the period he was the MacCarthy Mor and prior to his
abdication and self-imposed exile ..."

Brilliant!  Terence McCarthy/McCartney was never discredited at all;
he merely abdicated.  So all the titles he granted are just as valid
as those of any other now-deposed monarch.  Imagine such ingenuity
applied to worthwhile ends...the mind boggles.

Joseph McMillan

If the relevant heraldic authority, acting on behalf of the state and
within its powers, accepted these titles as valid in law then they are
valid in law. If the authorities got it wrong that is their problem;
people are entitled to rely on the state to get it right. There is a
parallel here in England with a writ of summons issued in error, which
was held to create a new peerage.
Congratulations, Baron Castleshort.

On 16 Sep., 11:58, "gra... at (no spam) gmilne.demon.co.uk"





gra... at (no spam) gmilne.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 4 Sep, 18:06, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

On Sep 4, 8:11 am, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur... at (no spam) SPAMOUTeircom.net> wrote
quoting Mr. Shortt:

'However, during the period he was the MacCarthy Mor and prior to his
abdication and self-imposed exile ..."

Brilliant!  Terence McCarthy/McCartney was never discredited at all;
he merely abdicated.  So all the titles he granted are just as valid
as those of any other now-deposed monarch.  Imagine such ingenuity
applied to worthwhile ends...the mind boggles.

Joseph McMillan

If the relevant heraldic authority, acting on behalf of the state and
within its powers, accepted these titles as valid in law then they are
valid in law. If the authorities got it wrong that is their problem;
people are entitled to rely on the state to get it right. There is a
parallel here in England with a writ of summons issued in error, which
was held to create a new peerage.
Congratulations, Baron Castleshort.

But with nobiliary titles, etc., not having any existence in the laws
of the Republic of Ireland, it is simply meaningless to say that a
recognition (erroneous or not) of Terence MacCarthy as the
representative of the MacCarthy Mor family should somehow endow the
titles invented by the latter as having any legal status.  What the
then Chief Herald stated--perhaps not very wisely--was (IIRC) that he
had no objection to Terence MacCarthy "disposing" of any titles he
might have a claim to, but such a statement carries no legal weight
whatsoever in Irish law.

Best wishes,

Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -