"DavidW" wrote:

Steve Curtis wrote:

You're dismissing the fact that
bodysuits trap air (including Thorpe's)
thus providing some degree of
buoyancy. Thorpe probably discovered
this effect the first time he wore the suit
and preferred to compete in one ever
since. Another effect provided by
bodysuits (including Thorpe's) is that
the suit's tight fit tends to keep the
swimmer's musculature stable, thus
improving the swimmer's streamline.
Thorpe probably noticed this effect the
first time as well.

In that case I can only conclude that
most other swimmers were not
interested enough in improving their
times to wear one, which I find hard to
believe. I'm sure Thorpe would have let
his teammates and coaches on the
Australian swimming team know if he felt
that the suit significantly improved his
times.

Why would Thorpe reveal any competitive edge with the use of a
specially designed suit? Especially since he occasionally competed
against some of his own teammates at times.

Eventually, the suit's
"edge" became widely known anyway after Thorpe's highly publicized
swims wearing the bodysuits and the publicity surrounding the suit
itself.

Steve Curtis wrote:

Why would Thorpe reveal any
competitive edge with the use of a
specially designed suit? Especially
since he occasionally competed against
some of his own teammates at times.

Why didn't they just try it, then? Thorpe
was the best swimmer in the world and
went through most of his career wearing
a bodysuit and breaking records left and
right. Don't you think a connection might
have occurred to them?

Eventually, the suit's "edge" became
widely known anyway after Thorpe's
highly publicized swims wearing the
bodysuits and the publicity surrounding
the suit itself.

There is no evidence that Thorpe's suit
was anything special.

These new suits are obviously streets
ahead of anything he wore and even the
LZR.

"DavidW" wrote:

Steve Curtis wrote:

Why would Thorpe reveal any
competitive edge with the use of a
specially designed suit? Especially
since he occasionally competed against
some of his own teammates at times.

Why didn't they just try it, then? Thorpe
was the best swimmer in the world and
went through most of his career wearing
a bodysuit and breaking records left and
right. Don't you think a connection might
have occurred to them?

How do you know that the suits weren't tried then? The bodysuit at the
time was in its infancy without the technological developments that
exist in suits today, perhaps some swimmers at the time felt that the
expense and/or lack of sponsorship wasn't worth it for something that
showed minimal promise for enhanced performance.

Eventually, the suit's "edge" became
widely known anyway after Thorpe's
highly publicized swims wearing the
bodysuits and the publicity surrounding
the suit itself.

There is no evidence that Thorpe's suit
was anything special.

There is evidence that Thorpe's suit was highly publicized in the
media.

These new suits are obviously streets
ahead of anything he wore and even the
LZR.

Gee, really?

Nobody is denying that Thorpe's suit lacked the
innovations that exist in modern day suits, but Thorpe's suit(s) had
something in common with the modern suits in that they enhance
buoyancy (albeit on a small scale) with trapped air.

The suit was worn for more than just a
"look." The suit presented Thorpe with the opportunity to swim in a more
efficient manner (i.e. buoyancy coupled with the benefits of a tight
fit).

Floatation and buoyancy go hand-in-hand. If records are to be altered in
any way for bodysuit swims, it should done for all or none. Biedermann's
polyurethane bodysuit and Thorpe's fabric bodysuit are both bodysuits
that enhance to different degrees.

Steve Curtis wrote:

"DavidW" wrote:

Steve Curtis wrote:

Why would Thorpe reveal any
competitive edge with the use of a
specially designed suit? Especially
since he occasionally competed
against some of his own teammates
at times.

Why didn't they just try it, then?
Thorpe was the best swimmer in the
world and went through most of his
career wearing a bodysuit and
breaking records left and right. Don't
you think a connection might have
occurred to them?

How do you know that the suits weren't
tried then? The bodysuit at the time
was in its infancy without the
technological developments that exist in
suits today, perhaps some swimmers at
the time felt that the expense and/or
lack of sponsorship wasn't worth it for
something that showed minimal
promise for enhanced performance.

Exactly. That's my point. Minimal
advantage, so there's a case for keeping
his records and discarding the new ones.
No there's not. "Minimal advantage" still means an advantage. Have you

Eventually, the suit's "edge" became
widely known anyway after Thorpe's
highly publicized swims wearing the
bodysuits and the publicity
surrounding the suit itself.

There is no evidence that Thorpe's suit
was anything special.

There is evidence that Thorpe's suit
was highly publicized in the media.

Because it was his "look". He stood out
in it because hardly anyone else
bothered to wear one. The publicity
wasn't about a speed advantage.

These new suits are obviously streets
ahead of anything he wore and even
the LZR.

Gee, really?

Yes, really. And that makes all the
difference. These new suits are
obviously wiping many seconds off the
records.

Nobody is denying that Thorpe's suit
lacked the innovations that exist in
modern day suits, but Thorpe's suit(s)
had something in common with the
modern suits in that they enhance
buoyancy (albeit on a small scale) with
trapped air.

Nobody has suggested that Thorpe's
records were aided by his suit, so I don't
think all of a sudden that they should be
queried now.

Most people bleating about the new suits
would probably be delighted if the
technology were wound back to make
Thorpe's suit the limit.

If records are to be altered in any way
for bodysuit swims, it should done for all
or none.

"MW Smith" wrote:
(Steve Curtis) wrote:
Floatation and buoyancy go
hand-in-hand. If records are to be
altered in any way for bodysuit swims,
it should be done for all or none.
Biedermann's polyurethane bodysuit
and Thorpe's fabric bodysuit are both
bodysuits that enhance to different
degrees.
Other than by manufacturer's claims, you
know all this how, exactly?  

Common sense would suggest that trapped air under bodysuits aids in
buoyancy (i.e. enhancement). Common sense would also suggest that the
tight fit of the suits has the potential to aid in streamlining. Other
than that, proof of claims for increased speed due to drag reduction is
up to the manufacturers by providing credible test data. So far, I'm
unaware of such data.

(Steve Curtis) wrote:

Floatation and buoyancy go
hand-in-hand. If records are to be
altered in any way for bodysuit swims,
it should be done for all or none.
Biedermann's polyurethane bodysuit
and Thorpe's fabric bodysuit are both
bodysuits that enhance to different
degrees.

Other than by manufacturer's claims, you
know all this how, exactly?