When I teach flip turns initially, I find the idea of any twist off the
wall adds a layer of confusion to the already difficult problem of
figuring out where your body is. My solution is that I have them swim
front crawl into the wall but leave the wall on their backs and swimming
backstroke. I don't have them do anything else until they can do that
well.

I was taught that it's OK to start the twist while your feet are still
on the wall, but also that it's important you flip straight over so that
your feet are pointed straight up - once you get that position, then you
can start your twist however you like - the differences are now too
subtle for the level I teach, and I don't really recall anyone paying
that much attention to them anyway. The big teaching point was that the
fastest flip was straight over without any twist until you had your feet
on the wall, and that point, they basically left it up to the individual
how to twist back into a face down position for front crawl.

That's more or less exactly what I teach, with a teaching point of bounce

On Jun 26, 10:30 am, _ <jtayNOSPAM... at (no spam) hfDONTSENDMESPAMx.andara.com
wrote:
Most swimmers of any reasonable level of skill do exactly that, not
what
"MW Smith" suggests; except that they push immediately on contact -
which
means that the roll happens during the pushoff.

Yes, well, we're talking about two different flip turns. I disagree
that most swimmers push off on their backs, if that's what you mean. I
expect those who do have a strong dolphin kick and are intending to
use multiple dolphins before returning to the surface.

But the flip turn you do at high speed in a race will be different
from the one you do in a lap swimming lane.

not what "MW Smith" suggests; except that they push immediately on
contact -
which means that the roll happens during the pushoff.

...which is in fact what MW Smith suggested.

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:51:29 -0400, Steve Freides wrote:
"MW Smith" <clipper.sm... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c86000ab-ca30-4367-b573-1216c9aa36a1 at (no spam) j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com....
On Jun 25, 1:44 pm, "Jon Danniken" <jondanSPAMni... at (no spam) yaSPAMhoo.com
wrote:
MW Smith wrote:

Observation completed: I just purse my lips and let the natural
pressure on my lungs during the flip force air out my nose.

Thanks M, I appreciate it.

Jon

One thing I forgot. I think newbie flip turners don't know to twist
the body on the way through the turn so that by the time the toes hit
the wall the head is right-side up again. I suspect that most newbies
get air in the nose after the flip, after they have stopped blowing
air out the nose, because their head is still upside down or sideways.
The twist during the flip is important to get the head and body right-
side up for the push-off.

When I teach flip turns initially, I find the idea of any twist off the
wall adds a layer of confusion to the already difficult problem of
figuring out where your body is.  My solution is that I have them swim
front crawl into the wall but leave the wall on their backs and swimming
backstroke.  I don't have them do anything else until they can do that
well.

I was taught that it's OK to start the twist while your feet are still
on the wall, but also that it's important you flip straight over so that
your feet are pointed straight up - once you get that position, then you
can start your twist however you like - the differences are now too
subtle for the level I teach, and I don't really recall anyone paying
that much attention to them anyway.  The big teaching point was that the
fastest flip was straight over without any twist until you had your feet
on the wall, and that point, they basically left it up to the individual
how to twist back into a face down position for front crawl.

Yes.

Most swimmers of any reasonable level of skill do exactly that, not what
"MW Smith" suggests; except that they push immediately on contact - which
means that the roll happens during the pushoff.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jun 26, 2:30 am, _ <jtayNOSPAM... at (no spam) hfDONTSENDMESPAMx.andara.com
wrote:





On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:51:29 -0400, Steve Freides wrote:
"MW Smith" <clipper.sm... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c86000ab-ca30-4367-b573-1216c9aa36a1 at (no spam) j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com....
On Jun 25, 1:44 pm, "Jon Danniken" <jondanSPAMni... at (no spam) yaSPAMhoo.com
wrote:
MW Smith wrote:

Observation completed: I just purse my lips and let the natural
pressure on my lungs during the flip force air out my nose.

Thanks M, I appreciate it.

Jon

One thing I forgot. I think newbie flip turners don't know to twist
the body on the way through the turn so that by the time the toes hit
the wall the head is right-side up again. I suspect that most newbies
get air in the nose after the flip, after they have stopped blowing
air out the nose, because their head is still upside down or sideways.
The twist during the flip is important to get the head and body right-
side up for the push-off.

When I teach flip turns initially, I find the idea of any twist off the
wall adds a layer of confusion to the already difficult problem of
figuring out where your body is.  My solution is that I have them swim
front crawl into the wall but leave the wall on their backs and swimming
backstroke.  I don't have them do anything else until they can do that
well.

I was taught that it's OK to start the twist while your feet are still
on the wall, but also that it's important you flip straight over so that
your feet are pointed straight up - once you get that position, then you
can start your twist however you like - the differences are now too
subtle for the level I teach, and I don't really recall anyone paying
that much attention to them anyway.  The big teaching point was that the
fastest flip was straight over without any twist until you had your feet
on the wall, and that point, they basically left it up to the individual
how to twist back into a face down position for front crawl.

Yes.

Most swimmers of any reasonable level of skill do exactly that, not what
"MW Smith" suggests; except that they push immediately on contact - which
means that the roll happens during the pushoff.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've seen proficient swimmers initiating their role during the flip
and after the flip. You can easily tell if they started the role
because many kick out of the wall sideways. Either way is effective. I
personally initiate role during turn although I can flip and role
after push-off. For illlustration purposes it is easier to teach
people to flip and then role. However some people start to role over
instinctively just like cats.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Observation completed: I just purse my lips and let the natural
pressure on my lungs during the flip force air out my nose.

So I've been learning how to do flipturns this year. Everything is coming
along well, but I get pool water in my sinuses, which has chlorine in it,
which messes with my sense of smell and just doesn't feel right.

For those of you who do flipturns regularly, do you eventually figure out
the timing and volume of air exhaled out of the nose such that it precludes
the problem, or do you just learn to live with pool water up in your nose?

Thanks,

Jon