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Hobby Forum Index » Guns » Old SxS 16 ga advise?...
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| BillM... |
 Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:15 pm |
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Just picked up an old 16 ga SxS shotgun for a
few bucks. It's an "American Gun Company,
New York" gun. Hardware store gun, made by
Crescent (which was owned by Folsom) and sold by
Folsom. If I had to guess I would pick
somewhere in the 1895-1910 range.
284XXX sn, matches on fore-end iron and wood.
Anybody have better info as to
date of manufacture or history?
28" hammer gun, not damascus ("Genuine Armory
Steel"). Perfect bores, around 98%
mechanically and 75% appearance. Most of the
color case remaining, barrels just starting to
go plum, woods a little rough.
It's chambered 2 9/16". I've got more than 2
other 16's, and I'm set up to reload 16, but
everything else I've got is 2 3/4". Anybody
got a recommendation for a good shotgun guy
that will take it out to 2 3/4" chambers?
Bill
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| Larry Caldwell... |
| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:41 am |
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In article <g4mauo$qof$1 at (no spam) grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, billmarrs at (no spam) verizon.net
(BillM) says...
# It's chambered 2 9/16". I've got more than 2
# other 16's, and I'm set up to reload 16, but
# everything else I've got is 2 3/4". Anybody
# got a recommendation for a good shotgun guy
# that will take it out to 2 3/4" chambers?
I think it was a couple years ago, Shooting Times published a step-by-
step for doing this yourself. It's not a complex process. Anyone with
the necessary 16 gauge reamer can do it. Since you will only be firing
one shell length, you can leave a ridge at the end of the chamber and
don't have to polish out a forcing cone.
Out of curiosity, what are the chokes?
--
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| BillM... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:07 am |
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"The necessary 16 gauge reamer"----there's the
issue! Brownell's wants
$175 for one, and I figure it would take a LONG
time to pay for itself on
old hardware store guns. It's 3/16"more chamber
depth, and it's out there
in the crimp area. I might just do a quick D
reamer and give that a try.
The darned thing isn't a Purdey or L.C. Smith.
Renting a reamer is another
possibility, or maybe I'll find someone that
will do the job for $20-$30.
Chokes-----not marked. Well, it does say "choke
bored" on it. A quick check
measures both bores the same, so I'm going to
guess full/full. Nice light little gun,
if it patterns OK (both barrels to the same
point) I'll probably hone it out a bit.
MOD/IC would probably be a better choke choice,
I see it as a quail/grouse gun.
Bill
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| George... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:07 am |
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One article I have seen on this conversion warned there barrel wall might
not be thick enough after the chamber was extended. This shotgun can't be
worth much is the conversion even economical?
George in Las Vegas
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| penultimate... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:07 am |
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On Jul 5, 6:41 am, Larry Caldwell <firstnamelastinit... at (no spam) peaksky.com>
wrote:
Quote: ...
Some thoughts and suggestions:
1. Of course, always start with an evaluation by a good gunsmith,
Include careful measurement of the present chamber. A gunsmith known
for his shotgun work is more likely to have the "good" chamber gauges
than a generalist. Though 100 years later it is usually impossible to
know why, I have seen some "2 9/16" chambers gauge 2 3/4 and others do
so after just a smidge of forcing cone polish.
2. The following is from memory. Citing Sherman Bell's experiments
measuring pressure in short chambers ("Finding Out for Myself" series,
Double Gun Journal within past 10 years), and Gough from ages ago
(which I have not read), Barsness (Handloader within last five years)
says a slightly short chamber does not matter, at least relative to
using a low pressure load appropriate to the shotgun's vintage. The
Barsness piece points out that the strength lost from reaming a true 2
9/16 chamber to 2 3/4 is greater than any pressure gain from shells
1/16" over. The business of reaming metal from 100 year old guns is
troublesome to me and I think Barsness is talking good sense here.
But I am probably not alone in "damn the facts" - over chamber length
shells make me nervous. But you might want to hunt up Bell's articles
or the Barsness piece or both. They might be enough to overcome your
nervousness.
3. The particularly good sense from Barsness is loads to turn-of-the-
century pressures for turn-of-the-century guns. Barness does publish
16 gauge "low pressure" loads appropriate to 100 year old shotguns.
"Low Pressure" loads are generally in the 5,000 to 7,000 PSI range,
decidedly less than "normal" store-bought 16 gauge loads (at 9,000 to
12,000 psi). You can, of course, buy low pressure, 2 1/2", 16 gauge
loads from Poly-wad, which would negate any need to do anything to the
chamber. A useful question here is whether your confidence in your
own evaluation of the gun's design and condition is great enough to
shoot Poly-wad 2 1/2" 16 gauge loads without a gunsmith review of the
piece? If so, how many rounds are you really going to put though the
gun? You sure as dickens can order up a case or two of short shells
for what you would invest in lengthing the chamber and cover a few
boxes if you think you can safely substitute your evaluation of the
gun for that from a gunsmith (with length gauges). Here I should note
that I have found the Polywad 2 1/2's are just fine for quail and
pheasant and that the real delight of these old guns is carting them
in the field. For 16's, these loads have caused me to stop fretting
about short chambers. If I am going to go through a flat on clays in
an afternoon, I should be using a modern gun better suited to the
battering and easier to fix if something breaks. And if I am likely
to go through only 8 or ten rounds on an outing, why mess with
reloads?
4, Noting that I consider use of "low pressure" loads a given in
antique shotguns, in reloading your own, why not just shorten your
hulls by the necessary 1/16"? Odds are you gear will load the short
hulls just find and certainly it is cheap enough to find out if I am
right. A little careful work with an exacto knife will do for a
couple of shells and tools for more volume trimming are reasonable if
slightly shortened shells work in your loader.
5. I have found the real fun of late with oldies being black powder
loads. For a double, just be sure to add a physical crimp to the glue
if you use brass cases (trimmed to any length you want!). The real
delight is the different sound and the smoke! You can order up
wadding at Super Fly Wads.
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| Chuck... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:49 am |
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Good luck on getting it field ready. Always interested in seeing the 16 ga
put to use. I've got an OLD built like a tank Auto 5 Browning that was my
dad's only shotgun. It shoots full patterns with a modified labeled bore.
Just too darn heavy and means too much to me to drag through the woods.
BTW, with clamp on rifle sights, it shoots slugs great.
Keep us informed on how your project goes.
"BillM" <billmarrs at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote in message
news:g4q910$41u$1 at (no spam) grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
--
Chuck
I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian.
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| BillM... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:49 am |
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" George" <gkbiv at (no spam) cox.net> wrote in message
news:g4q916$427$1 at (no spam) grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# One article I have seen on this conversion
# warned there barrel wall might
# not be thick enough after the chamber was
# extended. This shotgun can't be
# worth much is the conversion even economical?
# George in Las Vegas
Economical? If I buy a $165 reamer for one
job, no.
If I figure my time worth $0, and make a D
reamer, I suppose.
If I rent a reamer from 4D for $28 plus
shipping, just maybe.
If I remember there is an old gunsmith who has
been working on shotguns
for 50 years about 7 miles from me, he has the
reamer and will do the job
for $20 if I'm not in a hurry? Yup--it's
economical. I'll get the gun back in
a month or so.8=)
Bill
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| ... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:49 am |
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On Jul 4, 7:15 pm, "BillM" <billma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Can't help you with the date but I have one in 12 ga and use 2 3/4"
low brass factory loads in it without any trouble. Mine's probably
older than yours. It's all plum.
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| Del... |
| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:31 am |
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I also inherited an old 16 double with "rabbit ears". Roughly the
same age as yours. It also just states "16" and "choke" on it. It was
my great granddads gun.
The funny thing is, even though it is a 2 9/16 gun, my grandpa shot
many boxes of post war paper hull 2 3/4 shells through it, no problem.
The "chambers" were made much longer in the double than other types.
I remember reading in a gun rag once years ago, that this was normal
for many older 16 ga doubles, and it was ok to put regular shells
through it, as the powder loads were close enough to be safe. As I
recall, it even mentioned that the black powder loads of the turn of
the century, were stronger than the later smokless stuff, hence the
safety margin. Hi pressure buckshot or slugs were not recommended.
Before I made the gun a wall-hanger, I fired several of the same 2 3/4
Canuck loads through it, no problem.
Del
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