What to the American slave is your Fourth of July? I answer, a day
that reveals to him more than all other days of the year, the gross
injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him your
celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty an unholy license; your
national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are
empty and heartless; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mock;
your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your
religious parade and solemnity, are to him mere bombast, fraud,
deception, impiety, and hypocrisy - a thin veil to cover up crimes
which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of the
earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people
of these United States at this very hour.

Go search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and
despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out
every abuse and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the
side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with
me that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America
reigns without a rival.

Frederick Douglass - July 4, 1852 (Former Slave)

What to the American slave is your Fourth of July? I answer, a day
that reveals to him more than all other days of the year, the gross
injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him your
celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty an unholy license; your
national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are
empty and heartless; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mock;
your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your
religious parade and solemnity, are to him mere bombast, fraud,
deception, impiety, and hypocrisy - a thin veil to cover up crimes
which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of the
earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people
of these United States at this very hour.

Go search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and
despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out
every abuse and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the
side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with
me that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America
reigns without a rival.

Frederick Douglass - July 4, 1852 (Former Slave)

On Jun 28, 5:09�pm, "skepti... at (no spam) aol.com" <skepti... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:





What to the American slave is your Fourth of July? I answer, a day
that reveals to him more than all other days of the year, the gross
injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him your
celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty an unholy license; your
national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are
empty and heartless; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mock;
your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your
religious parade and solemnity, are to him mere bombast, fraud,
deception, impiety, and hypocrisy - a thin veil to cover up crimes
which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of the
earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people
of these United States at this very hour.

Go search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and
despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out
every abuse and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the
side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with
me that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America
reigns without a rival.

Frederick Douglass - July 4, 1852 (Former Slave)

Well, to me it's about watching the fireworks and waiting for martians
to land! I like gatherings where people are lying on blankets spread
out on the grass, watching the sky, and kids are running around with
sparklers, laughing. In the ozarks there would be fireflies. Here
there are frogs. Last year i watched the whole thing with 3-D glasses.
Of course, as a white person (and an american) i tried not to be
revolting, barbaric or shameless... seeing as how it was a special
occasion.

The *national independence* part is a little more difficult to
celebrate these days, seeing as how it is dying.

Oldwifetale - June 28, 2008- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"oldwifetale" <oldwifet... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:8b9d48c9-49ba-4a68-8319-c56810e28621 at (no spam) c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 28, 5:09 pm, "skepti... at (no spam) aol.com" <skepti... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:





What to the American slave is your Fourth of July? I answer, a day
that reveals to him more than all other days of the year, the gross
injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him your
celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty an unholy license; your
national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are
empty and heartless; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mock;
your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your
religious parade and solemnity, are to him mere bombast, fraud,
deception, impiety, and hypocrisy - a thin veil to cover up crimes
which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of the
earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people
of these United States at this very hour.

Go search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and
despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out
every abuse and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the
side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with
me that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America
reigns without a rival.

Frederick Douglass - July 4, 1852 (Former Slave)

Well, to me it's about watching the fireworks and waiting for martians
to land! I like gatherings where people are lying on blankets spread
out on the grass, watching the sky, and kids are running around with
sparklers, laughing. In the ozarks there would be fireflies. Here
there are frogs. Last year i watched the whole thing with 3-D glasses.
Of course, as a white person (and an american) i tried not to be
revolting, barbaric or shameless... seeing as how it was a special
occasion.

The *national independence* part is a little more difficult to
celebrate these days, seeing as how it is dying.

Oldwifetale - June 28, 2008
------------------
Fireworks and sparklers? Where I live you can get arrested for them, even on
"Independence Day."

On 28 Jun, 19:31, oldwifetale <oldwifet... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:





On Jun 28, 5:09�pm, "skepti... at (no spam) aol.com" <skepti... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:

What to the American slave is your Fourth of July? I answer, a day
that reveals to him more than all other days of the year, the gross
injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him your
celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty an unholy license; your
national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are
empty and heartless; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mock;
your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your
religious parade and solemnity, are to him mere bombast, fraud,
deception, impiety, and hypocrisy - a thin veil to cover up crimes
which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of the
earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people
of these United States at this very hour.

Go search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and
despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out
every abuse and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the
side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with
me that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America
reigns without a rival.

Frederick Douglass - July 4, 1852 (Former Slave)

Well, to me it's about watching the fireworks and waiting for martians
to land! I like gatherings where people are lying on blankets spread
out on the grass, watching the sky, and kids are running around with
sparklers, laughing. In the ozarks there would be fireflies. Here
there are frogs. Last year i watched the whole thing with 3-D glasses.
Of course, as a white person (and an american) i tried not to be
revolting, barbaric or shameless... seeing as how it was a special
occasion.

The *national independence* part is a little more difficult to
celebrate these days, seeing as how it is dying.

Oldwifetale - June 28, 2008- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

O Click on this link, which is a revolutionary perspective on the 4th
of July celebration, it shows the top part fireworks exploding, over
reflection on water, and below that is the famous photo of the bodies
at the Massacre of Mi Lai in Vietnam:

http://www.rwor.org/a/134/cover134-en.html

What to the American slave is your Fourth of July? I answer, a day
that reveals to him more than all other days of the year, the gross
injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him your
celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty an unholy license; your
national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are
empty and heartless; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mock;
your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your
religious parade and solemnity, are to him mere bombast, fraud,
deception, impiety, and hypocrisy - a thin veil to cover up crimes
which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of the
earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people
of these United States at this very hour.

Go search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and
despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out
every abuse and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the
side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with
me that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America
reigns without a rival.

Frederick Douglass - July 4, 1852 (Former Slave)

"oldwifetale" <oldwifet... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:8b9d48c9-49ba-4a68-8319-c56810e28621 at (no spam) c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 28, 5:09 pm, "skepti... at (no spam) aol.com" <skepti... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:





What to the American slave is your Fourth of July? I answer, a day
that reveals to him more than all other days of the year, the gross
injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him your
celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty an unholy license; your
national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are
empty and heartless; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mock;
your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your
religious parade and solemnity, are to him mere bombast, fraud,
deception, impiety, and hypocrisy - a thin veil to cover up crimes
which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of the
earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people
of these United States at this very hour.

Go search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and
despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out
every abuse and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the
side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with
me that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America
reigns without a rival.

Frederick Douglass - July 4, 1852 (Former Slave)

Well, to me it's about watching the fireworks and waiting for martians
to land! I like gatherings where people are lying on blankets spread
out on the grass, watching the sky, and kids are running around with
sparklers, laughing. In the ozarks there would be fireflies. Here
there are frogs. Last year i watched the whole thing with 3-D glasses.
Of course, as a white person (and an american) i tried not to be
revolting, barbaric or shameless... seeing as how it was a special
occasion.

The *national independence* part is a little more difficult to
celebrate these days, seeing as how it is dying.

Oldwifetale - June 28, 2008
------------------
Fireworks and sparklers? Where I live you can get arrested for them, even on
"Independence Day." At the very least the police will steal - that is,
"confiscate" them, and you get verbal abuse if not a summons as well. Looks
like there really isn't much freedom left to celebrate anyway, and there may
be some truth in the saying that 200 years is too long to go without a
revolution!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On 29 Jun, 12:08, "Freedom Fighter" <libe... at (no spam) once.net> wrote:





"oldwifetale" <oldwifet... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:8b9d48c9-49ba-4a68-8319-c56810e28621 at (no spam) c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 28, 5:09 pm, "skepti... at (no spam) aol.com" <skepti... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:

What to the American slave is your Fourth of July? I answer, a day
that reveals to him more than all other days of the year, the gross
injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him your
celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty an unholy license; your
national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are
empty and heartless; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mock;
your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your
religious parade and solemnity, are to him mere bombast, fraud,
deception, impiety, and hypocrisy - a thin veil to cover up crimes
which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of the
earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people
of these United States at this very hour.

Go search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and
despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out
every abuse and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the
side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with
me that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America
reigns without a rival.

Frederick Douglass - July 4, 1852 (Former Slave)

Well, to me it's about watching the fireworks and waiting for martians
to land! I like gatherings where people are lying on blankets spread
out on the grass, watching the sky, and kids are running around with
sparklers, laughing. In the ozarks there would be fireflies. Here
there are frogs. Last year i watched the whole thing with 3-D glasses.
Of course, as a white person (and an american) i tried not to be
revolting, barbaric or shameless... seeing as how it was a special
occasion.

The *national independence* part is a little more difficult to
celebrate these days, seeing as how it is dying.

Oldwifetale - June 28, 2008
------------------
Fireworks and sparklers? Where I live you can get arrested for them, even on
"Independence Day." At the very least the police will steal - that is,
"confiscate" them, and you get verbal abuse if not a summons as well. Looks
like there really isn't much freedom left to celebrate anyway, and there may
be some truth in the saying that 200 years is too long to go without a
revolution!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good for you Freedom Fighter. Oldwifetales don't reflect reality, it's
the John Birch Society stuff origniating the CIA.

On Jun 30, 12:14�pm, "skepti... at (no spam) aol.com" <skepti... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:





On 29 Jun, 12:08, "Freedom Fighter" <libe... at (no spam) once.net> wrote:

"oldwifetale" <oldwifet... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:8b9d48c9-49ba-4a68-8319-c56810e28621 at (no spam) c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com....
On Jun 28, 5:09 pm, "skepti... at (no spam) aol.com" <skepti... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:

What to the American slave is your Fourth of July? I answer, a day
that reveals to him more than all other days of the year, the gross
injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him your
celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty an unholy license; your
national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are
empty and heartless; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mock;
your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your
religious parade and solemnity, are to him mere bombast, fraud,
deception, impiety, and hypocrisy - a thin veil to cover up crimes
which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of the
earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people
of these United States at this very hour.

Go search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and
despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out
every abuse and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the
side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with
me that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America
reigns without a rival.

Frederick Douglass - July 4, 1852 (Former Slave)

Well, to me it's about watching the fireworks and waiting for martians
to land! I like gatherings where people are lying on blankets spread
out on the grass, watching the sky, and kids are running around with
sparklers, laughing. In the ozarks there would be fireflies. Here
there are frogs. Last year i watched the whole thing with 3-D glasses..
Of course, as a white person (and an american) i tried not to be
revolting, barbaric or shameless... seeing as how it was a special
occasion.

The *national independence* part is a little more difficult to
celebrate these days, seeing as how it is dying.

Oldwifetale - June 28, 2008
------------------
Fireworks and sparklers? Where I live you can get arrested for them, even on
"Independence Day." At the very least the police will steal - that is,
"confiscate" them, and you get verbal abuse if not a summons as well. Looks
like there really isn't much freedom left to celebrate anyway, and there may
be some truth in the saying that 200 years is too long to go without a
revolution!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good for you Freedom Fighter. Oldwifetales don't reflect reality, it's
the John Birch Society stuff origniating the CIA.

John Birch, haha. Are they still around? I haven't seen any of their
stuff since i was about 12. My thoughts do not have anything to do
with any organization's thoughts - they are my *own* thoughts. I have
grown children and grandchildren and have lived awhile, long enough to
know a 'threat' to my offspring when i see it, and i see it in your
communist rhetoric.

You don't have sparklers? Then that is *your* reality, created by your
own fascist communist leaders (having inserted themselves into our
government since the beginning) who would do anything to destroy any
remaining 'american' traditions by constant association with war or
brutality.

Guess what???? Thanksgiving isn't even about indians and pilgrims to
most people. I know that in my family, an indian or pilgrim never
entered the conversation, and the only presence was a child's
construction-paper cutout taped to the refrigerator. It's about family
gatherings and turkey, mashed potatoes and cranberry sauce! And to
some it's about a pre-usa feast that was observed in the month
assigned to the ruler 'Zeus/Jove/Thor - the 'god of abundance'. Even
its 'day' of he week is Thor's, and it's entirely pagan. Learn your
star lore.

You bring up death in association to our independence as a nation and
our break from the British? What does one have to do with the other?
Pretty interesting that you arrive at a conclusion that my thoughts
make me a John Birch Society follower.

Your attitude is something i'm used to - as a woman in *my society*.
For all the so-called equality (women being *allowed* to labor in the
work force rather than being able to watch out for their own
children), men still to this day do not want to hear women speak of
politics. Communists have a goal to dissolve all barriers, from
national barriers to gender barriers. Better work on that because
you're still showing 'bias'. Communists want to end families, saying
"it takes a village to raise a child", but show me a single mother
throughout all of Time and across all cultures who would not wail when
her child is taken forcibly by the 'state' or when she is forbidden
from her predominant role in the mother-child relationship. What you
promote as 'natural' is about as 'un-natural' as it gets. You think
all that is 'healthy' when in reality it's toxic.

In fact, you are a hypocrite, S - pointing fingers of blame when the
mormon women had their children temporarily taken, yet promoting a
society wherein families do not matter. Pointing to war-related deaths
by the usa when tens of millions were killed by the bolshevik
communist revolution, and millions more by the maoist revolution.
Where are your pictures of *those* bodies? What about the relocations
and the labor camps?

Those didn't exist?

And what happened to the ones who didn't want to conform (the
'undesirables) to these new 'democratic' societies filled with perfect
obedient scared-silent automatons? Answer that.

Seriously now... how much of your utopian communist society "reflects
reality"?

Do you even live in the usa?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On 30 Jun, 14:37, oldwifetale <oldwifet... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:

How could the Communist have influence the US government 'from the
beginning' when Communism as a theory wasn't even invented yet O?

could also accuse the Communists of murdering millions of Germans when
they invaded the Soviet Union. It would be a false accusation.

matters in what context a killing happens where it's right or wrong.
There are two types of violence,

and fighting back against their attackers is different than the
violence of the rapist.

Even in your dream society,

'the best of all
possible worlds' Capitalism and bourgeois democracy, you dream society
was founded in bloodshed, against those 'poor, innocent' British, the
'Founding Fathers' were killing their own two, because at the time
they were a colony of the same country, Great Britain.

Union was a liberating and emcipating society, in a way the United
Snakes has never been. Within that context, some of the killing the
USSR, was unjust, and it was murder. That being said, the USSR and
China was a better society than bourgeois societies in the west, and a
more moral society too. Mao Tse Tung said: "It's right to rebel--
against reaction."-

On Jun 30, 7:12�pm, "skepti... at (no spam) aol.com" <skepti... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:

On 30 Jun, 14:37, oldwifetale <oldwifet... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
How could the Communist have influence the US government 'from the
beginning' when Communism as a theory wasn't even invented yet O?

Communism existed as a 'reality' for well over 2400 years before it
existed as a 'theory'. It is apparent in every doctrine that is based
on an ideology (political, economic and religious) that involves
central power in a global realm, monotheistic religion included. Maybe
psychologically you could call it the King of the World Complex - Type
A. The Communist Manifesto is just a re-write, created for
'revolutionaries' who are expendable. The Constitution was supposed to
protect us from a capitalist (and definitely from a communist)
economic system that had a basic tendency to become centralized. This
depended on a free enterprise market that discouraged monopolization -
and NO central banks. Centralization can only exist when the
'citizenhip' is homogenous, so to speak - less about individuals, more
toward the 'collective' we-are-all-one thing, there is no expression
of individuality (geez, can't ya just *hear* their 'heavenly choir' of
perfect little angels all singing for the central power?) Sorry S, but
communism has been with us all along, and the 'real' communists know
how capitalism can be 'transformed' itself into communism. Look around
you... are these not wonderful times for a 'communist' like yourself?

Communists remind me a lot of christians... only difference is they
won't be getting raptured.

Dang.

But!... apparently you have decided that the egg came before the
chicken, and that some guy named Karl came up with this 'brilliant
idea' on his own whilst impregnating his wife's maid and living off
those capitalist cottonmill proceeds. Sure, that could happen.

You

could also accuse the Communists of murdering millions of Germans when
they invaded the Soviet Union. It would be a false accusation.

Then why bring it up?
Is that a common accusation?
Something you hear often?

It

matters in what context a killing happens where it's right or wrong.
There are two types of violence,

Who told you that?

the violence of a person being raped

and fighting back against their attackers is different than the
violence of the rapist.

And your point is... that the only 2 kinds of violence is either that
of a 'victim' or that of a 'scum bucket? Is that how you will treat
warriors in your society? What about the ones they kill? Are they
classified as victims or scum buckets? If they are scum buckets, what
will that make your warriors who perpetrate the violence? Victims?

Even in your dream society,

You don't want to go there, oh no you don't...

'the best of all
possible worlds' Capitalism and bourgeois democracy, you dream society
was founded in bloodshed, against those 'poor, innocent' British, the
'Founding Fathers' were killing their own two, because at the time
they were a colony of the same country, Great Britain.

Founding Fathers? Bourgeois democracy? What the hell are you talking
about? My ancestors fought in the revolutionary war, and i even have
one or two ancestors who were *accused* of being a tory - a loyalist!
I have the written recitation of my ancestor's oral account of his
part in the war. I know what they gave up to be here. My ancestor was
a 'founding father' every bit as much as any one of those people who
'framed' the constitution or the bill of rights or signed any indian
treaty, and my ancestors were 'founding mothers' as well. My ancestors
were here as quakers, mennonites, lutherans, 'witches', atheists,
irish, black (yes a slave), etc. - but you can be certain that every
single one of them were operating on the 'assumption' that we (the
people) composed our own nation, independent of Britain's rule. Where
are you from? Have you even *been* to the usa, much less lived here?

The Soviet

Union was a liberating and emcipating society, in a way the United
Snakes has never been. Within that context, some of the killing the
USSR, was unjust, and it was murder. That being said, the USSR and
China was a better society than bourgeois societies in the west, and a
more moral society too. Mao Tse Tung said: "It's right to rebel--
against reaction."-

Mmm-hmm, and how'd that work out?

On 30 Jun, 20:15, oldwifetale <oldwifet... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:



Communism existed as a 'reality' for well over 2400 years before it
existed as a 'theory'. It is apparent in every doctrine that is based
on an ideology (political, economic and religious) that involves
central power in a global realm, monotheistic religion included. Maybe
psychologically you could call it the King of the World Complex - Type
A. The Communist Manifesto is just a re-write, created for
'revolutionaries' who are expendable.

Skeptic Responds:

You can't blame Communism for things done before Communism was even
thought as a theory.

You

could also accuse the Communists of murdering millions of Germans when
they invaded the Soviet Union. It would be a false accusation.

Then why bring it up?
Is that a common accusation?
Something you hear often?

It

matters in what context a killing happens where it's right or wrong.
There are two types of violence,

Who told you that?

the violence of a person being raped

and fighting back against their attackers is different than the
violence of the rapist.

And your point is... that the only 2 kinds of violence is either that
of a 'victim' or that of a 'scum bucket? Is that how you will treat
warriors in your society? What about the ones they kill? Are they
classified as victims or scum buckets? If they are scum buckets, what
will that make your warriors who perpetrate the violence? Victims?

Skeptic Responds:

Violence doesn't exist in a vaccum, it is done for good or ill, in
context. We can both think up examples where we would agree that
violence is just, like using violence to protect a child who is being
abused.

Even in your dream society,

You don't want to go there, oh no you don't...

'the best of all
possible worlds' Capitalism and bourgeois democracy, you dream society
was founded in bloodshed, against those 'poor, innocent' British, the
'Founding Fathers' were killing their own two, because at the time
they were a colony of the same country, Great Britain.

Founding Fathers? Bourgeois democracy? What the hell are you talking
about? My ancestors fought in the revolutionary war, and i even have
one or two ancestors who were *accused* of being a tory - a loyalist!
I have the written recitation of my ancestor's oral account of his
part in the war. I know what they gave up to be here. My ancestor was
a 'founding father' every bit as much as any one of those people who
'framed' the constitution or the bill of rights or signed any indian
treaty, and my ancestors were 'founding mothers' as well. My ancestors
were here as quakers, mennonites, lutherans, 'witches', atheists,
irish, black (yes a slave), etc. - but you can be certain that every
single one of them were operating on the 'assumption' that we (the
people) composed our own nation, independent of Britain's rule. Where
are you from? Have you even *been* to the usa, much less lived here?

Skeptic responds:

But in your opinion it is such a wrong to rebel against your mother
country. The America rebels were using violence against their own
mother government, Great Britain. How dare they?! Were they 'scum
bags' or 'victims' O?

China was a better society than bourgeois societies in the west, and a
more moral society too. Mao Tse Tung said: "It's right to rebel--
against reaction."-

Mmm-hmm, and how'd that work out?

O, Google 'John Birch Society' and you find the opinions you think you
created or found out are really the fables of the John Birch Society.
The John Birch Society is a creation of the CIA, in order to fool
people.-

On 30 Jun, 14:37, oldwifetale <oldwifet... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jun 30, 12:14ï¿=3Fpm, "skepti... at (no spam) aol.com" <skepti... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:





On 29 Jun, 12:08, "Freedom Fighter" <libe... at (no spam) once.net> wrote:

"oldwifetale" <oldwifet... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:8b9d48c9-49ba-4a68-8319-c56810e28621 at (no spam) c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 28, 5:09 pm, "skepti... at (no spam) aol.com" <skepti... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:

What to the American slave is your Fourth of July? I answer, a day
that reveals to him more than all other days of the year, the gross
injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him your
celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty an unholy license; your
national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are
empty and heartless; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mock;
your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your
religious parade and solemnity, are to him mere bombast, fraud,
deception, impiety, and hypocrisy - a thin veil to cover up crimes
which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of the
earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people
of these United States at this very hour.

Go search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and
despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out
every abuse and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the
side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with
me that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America
reigns without a rival.

Frederick Douglass - July 4, 1852 (Former Slave)

Well, to me it's about watching the fireworks and waiting for martians
to land! I like gatherings where people are lying on blankets spread
out on the grass, watching the sky, and kids are running around with
sparklers, laughing. In the ozarks there would be fireflies. Here
there are frogs. Last year i watched the whole thing with 3-D glasses.
Of course, as a white person (and an american) i tried not to be
revolting, barbaric or shameless... seeing as how it was a special
occasion.

The *national independence* part is a little more difficult to
celebrate these days, seeing as how it is dying.

Oldwifetale - June 28, 2008
------------------
Fireworks and sparklers? Where I live you can get arrested for them, even on
"Independence Day." At the very least the police will steal - that is,
"confiscate" them, and you get verbal abuse if not a summons as well. Looks
like there really isn't much freedom left to celebrate anyway, and there may
be some truth in the saying that 200 years is too long to go without a
revolution!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good for you Freedom Fighter. Oldwifetales don't reflect reality, it's
the John Birch Society stuff origniating the CIA.

John Birch, haha. Are they still around? I haven't seen any of their
stuff since i was about 12. My thoughts do not have anything to do
with any organization's thoughts - they are my *own* thoughts. I have
grown children and grandchildren and have lived awhile, long enough to
know a 'threat' to my offspring when i see it, and i see it in your
communist rhetoric.

You don't have sparklers? Then that is *your* reality, created by your
own fascist communist leaders (having inserted themselves into our
government since the beginning) who would do anything to destroy any
remaining 'american' traditions by constant association with war or
brutality.

Guess what???? Thanksgiving isn't even about indians and pilgrims to
most people. I know that in my family, an indian or pilgrim never
entered the conversation, and the only presence was a child's
construction-paper cutout taped to the refrigerator. It's about family
gatherings and turkey, mashed potatoes and cranberry sauce! And to
some it's about a pre-usa feast that was observed in the month
assigned to the ruler 'Zeus/Jove/Thor - the 'god of abundance'. Even
its 'day' of he week is Thor's, and it's entirely pagan. Learn your
star lore.

You bring up death in association to our independence as a nation and
our break from the British? What does one have to do with the other?
Pretty interesting that you arrive at a conclusion that my thoughts
make me a John Birch Society follower.

Your attitude is something i'm used to - as a woman in *my society*.
For all the so-called equality (women being *allowed* to labor in the
work force rather than being able to watch out for their own
children), men still to this day do not want to hear women speak of
politics. Communists have a goal to dissolve all barriers, from
national barriers to gender barriers. Better work on that because
you're still showing 'bias'. Communists want to end families, saying
"it takes a village to raise a child", but show me a single mother
throughout all of Time and across all cultures who would not wail when
her child is taken forcibly by the 'state' or when she is forbidden
from her predominant role in the mother-child relationship. What you
promote as 'natural' is about as 'un-natural' as it gets. You think
all that is 'healthy' when in reality it's toxic.

In fact, you are a hypocrite, S - pointing fingers of blame when the
mormon women had their children temporarily taken, yet promoting a
society wherein families do not matter. Pointing to war-related deaths
by the usa when tens of millions were killed by the bolshevik
communist revolution, and millions more by the maoist revolution.
Where are your pictures of *those* bodies? What about the relocations
and the labor camps?

Those didn't exist?

And what happened to the ones who didn't want to conform (the
'undesirables) to these new 'democratic' societies filled with perfect
obedient scared-silent automatons? Answer that.

Seriously now... how much of your utopian communist society "reflects
reality"?

Do you even live in the usa?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How could the Communist have influence the US government 'from the
beginning' when Communism as a theory wasn't even invented yet O? You
could also accuse the Communists of murdering millions of Germans when
they invaded the Soviet Union. It would be a false accusation. It
matters in what context a killing happens where it's right or wrong.
There are two types of violence, the violence of a person being raped
and fighting back against their attackers is different than the
violence of the rapist. Even in your dream society, 'the best of all
possible worlds' Capitalism and bourgeois democracy, you dream society
was founded in bloodshed, against those 'poor, innocent' British, the
'Founding Fathers' were killing their own two, because at the time
they were a colony of the same country, Great Britain. The Soviet
Union was a liberating and emcipating society, in a way the United
Snakes has never been. Within that context, some of the killing the
USSR, was unjust, and it was murder. That being said, the USSR and
China was a better society than bourgeois societies in the west, and a
more moral society too. Mao Tse Tung said: "It's right to rebel--
against reaction."

On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:14:09 -0700 (PDT), "skepti... at (no spam) aol.com"

skepti... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
Skeptic responds:

O, you constantly use fallacious circular reasoning. Example:
Communism
must be responsible for the crimes of the world even before Communism
was invented because Communism was the secret plans of the
'Centralists.' Also: Now that Communism has been defeated worldwide,
the crimes of the Capitalists, are really the secret crimes of the
Communist Cabals.

  Here is a quote from Mein Kampf:

       "the Jew seized upon the manifold possiblities which the
situation offered him for the future. While on the one hand he
organized capitalistic methods of exploitation to their ultimate
degree of efficiency, he curried favour with the victims of his policy
and his power and in a short while became the leader of their struggle
against himself. 'Against himself' is here only a figurative way of
speaking; for this 'Great Master of Lies' knows how to appear in the
guise of the innocent and throw the guilt on others. Since he had the
impudence to take a personal lead among the masses, they never for a
moment suspected that they were falling prey to one of the most
infamous deceits ever practiced. And yet that is what it actually
was."

http://www.ihr.org/     http://www.natvan.com

http://www.thebirdman.org   http://www.nsm88.com/

http://wsi.matriots.com/jews.html