Was Wagner religious?...

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Ferris...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:39 am

Guest

Obviously he thought quite a bit about religion, but is it at all
known or clear what he personally believed (at any time)?

It seems like his essay 'Religion and Art' suggests a deep piety, if
not a love for organized religion, but I'm no expert.

jrw...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:06 am

Guest

On Jun 25, 6:39 pm, Ferris <AndrewTFer... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

Hi Andrew,

I think you would get more joy if you posted to this group:

http://groups.google.com/group/opera-clips-ancora

The knowledge of some of the posters there is really quite amazing.

Best regards

John

Ferris...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:22 am

Guest

On Jun 25, 2:06 pm, jrw <jrwilm... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

On Jun 25, 6:39 pm, Ferris <AndrewTFer... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

Obviously he thought quite a bit about religion, but is it at all
known or clear what he personally believed (at any time)?

It seems like his essay 'Religion and Art' suggests a deep piety, if
not a love for organized religion, but I'm no expert.

Hi Andrew,

I think you would get more joy if you posted to this group:

http://groups.google.com/group/opera-clips-ancora

The knowledge of some of the posters there is really quite amazing.

Best regards

John

Thanks for the advice (which I heeded)

Andrew

LT...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:36 am

Guest

On Jun 25, 1:39 pm, Ferris <AndrewTFer... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

Nor am I, but his interest in religion seemed primarily, if not
entirely focused on its effects on art and society, rather than
personal concern with the topic per se.

LT

LT...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:54 am

Guest

On Jun 25, 2:42 pm, "Wagner Fan" <wagner... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:

Quote:

I strongly suggest you submit this question to the group

humanities.music.composers.wagner

there are Wagner experts there who really >know their stuff.

True;

Here's a link that works:

http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/wagnerfaq.htm

Torquil...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:50 am

Guest

On Jun 25, 2:54 pm, "John Molloy" wrote:

Quote:

On Jun 25, 2:42 pm, "Wagner Fan" <wagner... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:

I strongly suggest you submit this question to the group

humanities.music.composers.wagner

there are Wagner experts there who really >know their stuff.

True;

Here's a link that works:

Here's a better one, John:

http://users.belgacom.net/wagnerlibrary/prose/wlpr0126.htm

Torquil Urquhart

jrw...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:41 am

Guest

On Jun 25, 9:44 pm, Derrick Everett <sparafucile1... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:06:04 -0700, jrw wrote:

...

I think you would get more joy if you posted to this group:

http://groups.google.com/group/opera-clips-ancora

The knowledge of some of the posters there is really quite amazing.

Mr. Wilmott,
If you are referring to the gang of vicious opera queens and foul-mouthed
lawyers that has infested this newsgroup for a long time, then -- as a
frequent reader of this group and infrequent contributor these last 12
years -- I can only say good riddance. Long have I wished them in
another place, preferably one much warmer. If you prefer their company
then I suggest that you concentrate on posting to your cosy little group
rather than to r.m.o.

--
Derrick Everett
====== Writing from 59°54'N 10°37'E =======http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htmhttp://www.monsalvat.no/wagnerfaq.htm

Hi Derrick,

I can think of no more vicious opera queen than CH, and really I can't
imagine who fits that description on ancora. I know LT is no lawyer,
but has there been anyone more foul-mouthed on RMO. I read your
previous post; thoughtful and intelligent, one of the best opera posts
that RMO has seen in some time. I write this will all sincerity, I
honestly think you would be more at home in the 'other place'. Please
pay a visit and read some of the threads and please consider joining.

Best regards

John

LT...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:48 am

Guest

On Jun 25, 4:44 pm, Derrick Everett <sparafucile1... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

Thank you, Mr. Everett; whatever my replies to said vicious
'contributors' over the years - you speak eloquently for the 'silent
majority' *and* those of us who haven't been so silent.

May we who remain here read more of your posts, not what wilmutt
repetitiously 'promotes' - albeit in vain.

LT

> ====== Writing from 59°54'N 10°37'E =======http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htmhttp://www.monsalvat.no/wagnerfaq.htm

LT...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:54 am

Guest

On Jun 25, 2:54 pm, LT <LeonardT2... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

This is, btw, the best one; not what that Turdville Urqsomefart
'offered'.

LT...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:56 am

Guest

On Jun 25, 4:01 pm, "Wagner Fan" <wagner... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:

Quote:

Religion and Art has been discussed extensively in the wagner group I
mentioned - its place in his life and work and its ramifications both valid
and preposterous. Wagner Fan

Of course, but the creature you're addressing is reading-impaired, to
say the *most*. :)

"Torquil" <torquil.urquh... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote - nonsense

LT...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:19 pm

Guest

On Jun 25, 5:56 pm, LT <LeonardT2... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

On Jun 25, 4:01 pm, "Wagner Fan" <wagner... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:

Religion and Art has been discussed extensively in the wagner group I
mentioned - its place in his life and work and its ramifications both valid
and preposterous. Wagner Fan

Of course, but the creature you're addressing is reading-impaired, to
say the *most*. :)

"Torquil" <torquil.urquh... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote - nonsense

PS:

An intelligent poster wrote:

Quote:

This may be a rather crude reply...but I think the only
religion Wagner truly believed in was >dangling between his legs.

Must've been a mini-religion, then.

Quote:

..and
of course as many women he could bed. His monumental ego was
apparently quite a draw to the ladies of that era. I sincerly hope
this answer doesn't offend you horribly.

Mind you...I'm a devout Wagnerian and I listen to his music more than
any other composer...but as far as I know Wagner was NOT a religious
person.

Unless Hedonism counts as a religion. Some say it does, and they're
entitled to their belief, I say!

Quote:

'Parsifal' and the ill-fated 'Die Sieger' notwithstanding.
He was too close to the Schopenauer philosophy to be anything else.

The little 'turdquil' troll sticks its nose into the proceedings:

Quote:

Hoping not to offend you, but you write >as if to be irreligious is a
character flaw

That shouldn't concern you, since you have no character whatsoever.

Quote:

or though[sicK] it seems to me.

Ah, you have a lisp problem, eh? Smile

)

Wagner, at least, was talented; you, 'torqy', are a Nobody. Oh, make
that a Total Nobody. Smile

LT...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:27 pm

Guest

Quote:

Mr. Wilmott,
If you are referring to the gang of vicious opera queens and foul-mouthed
lawyers that has infested this newsgroup for a long time, then -- as a
frequent reader of this group and infrequent contributor these last 12
years -- I can only say good riddance. Long have I wished them in
another place, preferably one much warmer. If you prefer their company
then I suggest that you concentrate on posting to your cosy little group
rather than to r.m.o.

--
Derrick Everett
====== Writing from 59°54'N 10°37'E
=======http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htmhttp://www.monsalvat.no/wagner...

The fey, queenly sl%t replies:

Quote:

Hi Derrick,

Don't let that 'hi' fool you.

Quote:

I can think of no more vicious opera queen than we at 'ancora', and really I can't
imagine anyone here who fits that description.

Look at (no spam) a mirror. If it doesn't crack.

Quote:

I know LT is no lawyer, but he should be, as his intellect and education outmatch mine by a billion-fold.

but has there been anyone more foul-mouthed on RMO than >the 'deceased' ljo', its 'alters', and its ridiculous, still-whinging, >team of flunkies - including me, the wilmutt?

Truly, no. In fact, the wilmutt, in sloshed/hysteria mode, said 'sh
%t' several times; This wouldn't be notable, except that this clown
rags on about other people's profanity. Doesn't that suggest the 'H"
word?

If you like hypocrisy and all its manifestations, 'OCA', aka BRMOOOOO,
is the place you want. Otherwise, don't let anyone tell you where to
post.

LT

LT...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:33 pm

Guest

WF:

Quote:

If Derrick checks the new group he will
find a complete absence of the nonsense that killed RMO

Rather ironic, isn't it, since the new group is run and partly
populated by the very perpetrators/provocateurs of said nonsense that
changed - not killed- RMO.

This may be considered aside from the new group's mostly boring
posts, by 'eruditsia' who 'know the notes, but not the music'. Smile

Wagner Fan...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:42 pm

Guest

I strongly suggest you submit this question to the group

humanities.music.composers.wagner

there are Wagner experts there who really know their stuff and you will
avoid the the wealth of wrong information, biases and unsubstantiated rumors
you get with most answers to this question. Wagner Fan
"Ferris" <AndrewTFerris at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f51ee18c-1443-4575-be70-2b96c8e2e756 at (no spam) l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

Quote:

Derrick Everett...

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:53 pm

Guest

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:39:17 -0700, Ferris wrote:

Quote:

Obviously he thought quite a bit about religion, but is it at all known
or clear what he personally believed (at any time)?

It seems like his essay 'Religion and Art' suggests a deep piety, if not
a love for organized religion, but I'm no expert.

To answer your question, "was Wagner religious", in full would take an
entire book and there are probably too many books about Wagner already;
many of them unnecessary and all too many of them concerned with aspects
of Wagner's life, thought and dinner-table conversation that are of less
importance than their authors might believe. In my view the question of
Wagner's attitude to religion is indeed important for anyone trying to
understand or to appreciate his musical and dramatic works; much more so
than, for example, his views on race, his fondness for dogs or his
preferences in cushions and curtains.

Important because -- as any intelligent person who studies Wagner's
canonical operas cannot fail to discover -- his operas are about
salvation. This is evident most obviously in the later operas, less
obviously in the early ones, although it is generally agreed that they
share the theme of "redemption through love". It has been suggested by
one scholar that his last opera -- the one that most obviously deals with
salvation -- is more about redemption *from* love, or at least about the
escape from "eros" (sexual love) as opposed to "agape" (non-sexual love).

To begin at the end: the commonest word in the libretto of 'Parsifal' is
"Heil", which usually means salvation but sometimes health or wholeness.
At least it is if the most common if we count both the noun "Heil" and
the verb "heil" together. Not only that but the libretto is full of
related words such as "Heiland" (Saviour) and "Heiligtum" (sanctuary);
and it is, in general, filled with religious language. In particular,
there are many references to "ErlÃ¶sung" (redemption or release) and to
"ErlÃ¶ser" (redeemer), although which redeemer is meant, or whether the
character who is addressed really is a redeemer, are not entirely clear.
Commentators are divided about whether 'Parsifal' is a religious work, or
one about religion, or one about big questions that religions attempt to
answer, or about the psychopathology of religion, or one that uses
religious language with the symbols of religion that priests have
interpreted literally in the service of art and/or philosophy. The essay
to which you refer, 'Religion and Art' -- the first of a series of
increasingly cranky essays that Wagner wrote towards the end of his life
while he was completing the score of 'Parsifal' -- implies the last of
these options.

Michel Tanner has written -- with tongue in cheek perhaps -- that many
people know that Wagner wrote an opera about religion but few of them
know that it is entitled 'Tristan und Isolde'. Even fewer know that the
famous "Tristan chord" had been used in a piano piece by Wagner's friend
von BÃ¼low before Wagner wrote his opera. The title of the piece is
'Nirwana' and the concept of nirvana, as it was understood in the west at
that time, has been related to the opera. Arguably, the "highest bliss"
that is referred to in the last line of the libretto is nirvana in the
sense of individual extinction, the blowing out of the flame of life.

Already in his youth Wagner turned away from organised religion and he
always remained anti-clerical. It is beyond doubt (on the basis of his
letters and essays) that Wagner was interested in religion and in
questions that are answered by religion: about the purpose of life, the
existence of God, the basis of morality and so on. He was interested in
mysticism (even, it has been claiemd, with the Kabbalah) and his wide-
ranging reading included Sufi poetry by Hafiz, the sermons of Master
Eckhart, the Upanishads and a few Buddhist Sutras that had been already
translated into western languages. Yet he told his second wife Cosima
that he did not believe in God, only in divinity. It was perhaps the
influence of Darwin that led him to declare, "God is Nature".

As well as rejecting religious traditions (although he was interested in
their origins), Wagner was sceptical about scripture in general. In his
view, based upon reading articles and books by contemporary theologians
such as Strauss and Renan, the Gospels had not been written until long
after the death of Jesus and probably contained at best a distorted
version of his teachings. Even the disciples, he stated, had understood
Jesus no better than a little dog understands his master. The original
teachings underlying other religions, including Buddhism (in which he
took a particular interest from 1855 onwards), in his opinion had been
lost or obscured by traditions that had developed much later, so that it
was difficult to recover the doctrines that either Jesus or Buddha had
taught. Wagner believed, however, that there was a kernel of truth that
had been taught by these and other saints and sages. This is what he
referred to as "true Christianity", something rather different from the
Christianity taught by the churches and probably closer to the Vedas and
the Sutras than to the Gospels. In the history of religion, as in
history in general, Wagner saw patterns that were repeated, and he found
many parallels between the development of Christianity and that of
Buddhism; including a tendency for religious communities to turn inwards
and to need renewal and regeneration.

One view of Wagner's beliefs and opinions concerning religion can be
found in A.D. Aberbach's book, 'Richard Wagner's Religious Ideas'.
Although I do not agree with everything in this book, I can recommend it
as an approach to Wagner from an angle that is original and revealing.

So, in no sense did Wagner show "deep piety", neither did he have any
love for organized religion, but it is certain that Wagner thought about
religion and that he was concerned with religious and moral issues.
Which might seem surprising to those who regard Wagner as an immoral
character. He said once that if he had not been an artist, he would have
liked to have been a saint; but since he *was* an artist, he could not be
a saint.

--
Derrick Everett
====== Writing from 59Â°54'N 10Â°37'E =======
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htm
http://www.monsalvat.no/wagnerfaq.htm

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