Thank-you so much for your very informative post! That was even more
than I had hoped for, although I'm still interested if anyone has
found a good recording of harp with orchestra bells. Thanks for
setting me straight on "glockenspiel" vs. "orchestra bells." Based on
the orchestration books I have used (Kennan, Adler), I had thought
those terms were interchangeable, or at least both understood to mean
orchestra bells.
I did find a pretty good recording of harp in the upper register...the
Gliere concerto
athttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkDu3KswtHA
(although this uses many more notes whereas the effect I want is much
more spartan...hence my added concern about how much the harp will
project).
By the way, you mentioned midi sound cards. Is that something one can
do with a laptop, or does one need a desktop computer for that? I
would eventually be very interested in being able to test things in
midi (at least conceptually) beyond the piano sound I have now,
although that would probably have to wait if it costs thousands of
dollars.
Anyhow, thanks again for the suggestions!
On Jun 19, 9:24 pm, LJS <ljsche... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 19, 4:15 pm, NewbisBD <anojj... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
Hi,
I'm wondering if anyone would be able to advise me on how brilliant
aharp'stone can sound in the upper register in a large hall. I'm
considering writing a portion of an orchestra piece forglockenspiel
(probably rubber mallets so it's not too dingy)
Good bells are not what I would call "dingy" under any normal
circumstances. I would only call some student bells "dingy" but this
is a very subjective term to begin with.
andharp(not much
else would be going on in this one part...maybe vibraphone and later
some clarinets). The order in which their parts go requires that I
have a clear picture of whether it is possible for theharpto sound
brilliant and "ringy" after theglockenspiel. If I have the glock
play and then theharpas the melody is supposed to get louder, I
don't want it sound anti-climactic or "thin."
In general, the higher the note, the less ring there will be with theharpand the lower the note, the more resonance of body will be there
(its an overtone thing) but the bells (since they have a different
overtone series) will still have a much more relative ring duration
than the short strings of theharpor piano. (Personally, I have a
difficult time hearing the actual notes of the last octave of a piano
as the attack of the hammer overshadow the tone itself)
There are several problems that you may not be aware of concerning
this. First, not knowing where you are from, I want to point out that
in the US, there is a difference between theglockenspieland the
orchestra bells. The glocks are used in marching bands and the Orch
Bells are what you normally hear in the symphonic hall, but in Europe
they termGlockenspielmay be used to mean the orchestra variety. .
Even then, there are great ranges in the metals used in the Orchestra
bells (or glocks) that you find in the symphony orchestra. A
percussionist may, usually at the discretion of the conductor, use
different bells in different circumstances. Then there are the sticks
or mallets. These vary from brass balls to yarn mallets. Most common
are rubber mallets of varying hardness. The Brass mallets will be the
loudest and the most brilliant, the yarn mallets will be very much
softer and with hardly an attack sound at all. Some bells are very
thick and made of very high density steel much like a high pitched
vibraphone and others are made of aluminum and other alloys and will
have a much thinner sound.
All that said, there is also variations in harps, although, if you are
writing for a professional symphony orchestra, the harps will be more
likely to be of high quality and will have good strings and a powerful
sounding board. Even so, one can generally get more Brilliance from a
good quality grand piano than most will get from aharp. SO....
There is not any really direct answer that can be applied to your
question unless one knows what you are actually dealing with for both
instruments. My suggestion is that you do what many composers have
done and that is to talk to the conductor that will be performing your
piece and explain to him what you are after and listen to his
suggestions. He is, after all, the one that is most likely to be able
to tell you what your orchestrations will sound like as he is the one
responsible for bringing the sound off the paper and into the ears of
the listener.
If you are doing a composition without a commission, then you might do
well to find a percussionist and aharpplayer and have them play your
orchestrations. You can then make note of the type of mallets and
bells used by the percussionist and theharpplayer will be able to
tell you if her/hisharpis of very high or of student quality and you
can take this into consideration.
If these suggestions are too much trouble for you, then maybe use a
midi program and the best orchestral sound card that you can find and
just write what you imagine it to sound like in your head and then see
what this sounds like in midi. Good sound cards are at least somewhat
balanced and with this rather thinly orchestrated section, you should
be able to get an idea if your solution has any possibility of working
in the real world and leave it to the conductor to instruct the
musicians as to how to make your intentions come across to the
listener.
But if you want to make sure that the repeat or continuation of the
melody produces a constant increase in tone and timbre, I would put
theharpfirst and then the bells as there is more latitude with the
bells than with theharpto produce this effect as with professional
quality instruments a good percussionist will always find a way to
increase the sound to balance or (sometimes to a greater extent than
desired) to be louder and more brilliant than aharp!
You might also consider using a Celeste in as the first instrument of
the percussion family or as a substitute for theharpunless theharp
is necessary for a transition from plucked strings to struck
percussion. The Celeste has a softer quality than the orch bells and
would be a very natural transition to follow theharp. (just a
thought)
For the very short answers, see the three quick responses below.
LJS.
Somehow, from hearing harps, I get the sense that they can sound quite
brilliant up at the top register. But in any recordings on youtube,
etc., theharpalways sounds kind of thin in the orchestra, even if
it's playing a solo.
Yes they can, but they are still not capable of reaching the sound
pressure of the orchestra bells (orglockenspiel) and the softer
mallets will be less brilliant than the harder ones.
I'm wondering if using nails and/or "pres de la table" could make the
harpreally be able to "overpower" theglockenspiel, and super
climactic after the glock if the glock isn't playing really loud? Or
will theharpjust still sound kind of "thin" in a large space,
compared to aglockenspiel?
Get a good microphone! Then the sound man can do what you want.
By the way, does anyone know where I could get a recording or video of
aharp/glockenspielduet, or aharpplaying high notes loudly with an
orchestra?
Not off hand.
Thanks!- Hide quoted text -
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