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Hobby Forum Index » Sport - Swimming » Swimmer's shoulder
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| Author |
Message |
| Haim Guivon |
 Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 11:39 pm |
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Guest
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I've seen Larry Weisenthal's very learned explanation, and read the URL he
recommended.
However, as a non-professional, I don't quite understand how to translate
the directives into practice. If I could see sketches to show me exactly how
to correct my strokes, it would be most useful.
I swim for about one hour and a quarter of an hour every day, and I switch
among all the styles (except the most strenous butterfly). The shoulder pain
appeared when I started swimming again after a pause of two months.
I'll appreciate any guide, thank you.
haim |
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| Martin W. Smith |
| Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 12:10 am |
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Guest
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"Haim Guivon" <arieh@search.com> wrote:
Quote: I've seen Larry Weisenthal's very learned explanation, and read the URL he
recommended.
However, as a non-professional, I don't quite understand how to translate
the directives into practice. If I could see sketches to show me exactly how
to correct my strokes, it would be most useful.
I swim for about one hour and a quarter of an hour every day, and I switch
among all the styles (except the most strenous butterfly). The shoulder pain
appeared when I started swimming again after a pause of two months.
I'll appreciate any guide, thank you.
What kind of stretching do you do for your shoulders? |
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| Gleshna |
| Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 7:00 am |
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Quote: If I could see sketches to show me exactly how
to correct my strokes, it would be most useful.
No sketch; however, one swimming author makes the research summary rather
simple. Reaching and lifting the elbow for the hand scull causes shoulder
problems. The solution given was to be sure the the hand drops down before you
pressure for the scull.
Gleshna - Multi-Thousandaire
DA LAKES:
Da Lake Tube: http://www.greatlakesurfing.com/images/Gallery/point.jpg
Da new Lake Movie: http://www.unsalted.tv/
Da Bears ??????? |
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| Haim Guivon |
| Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 5:17 am |
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"Martin W. Smith" <no.email@this.time> wrote in message
news:n9agb0han7ltcm79bfghf9qh2kb6086oqf@4ax.com...
Quote: "Haim Guivon" <arieh@search.com> wrote:
I've seen Larry Weisenthal's very learned explanation, and read the URL
he
recommended.
However, as a non-professional, I don't quite understand how to translate
the directives into practice. If I could see sketches to show me exactly
how
to correct my strokes, it would be most useful.
I swim for about one hour and a quarter of an hour every day, and I
switch
among all the styles (except the most strenous butterfly). The shoulder
pain
appeared when I started swimming again after a pause of two months.
I'll appreciate any guide, thank you.
What kind of stretching do you do for your shoulders?
=======================================
1) Holding hands behind back
2) Pressing on elbow with arm extended sideward before chest.
3) Lifting arms with hands clasped behind body.
4) Hands above head, and stretching upwards one after the other while
holding wrist with other hand. Same stretch upwards and sidewards (to the
hand's opposite direction).
All these are done before swimming. After swimming, several push-ups.
So sorry for my clumsy descriptions. It is poor knowledge of matter and of
english language.
Thank you for answering.
haim
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| Haim Guivon |
| Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 5:38 am |
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"Gleshna" <gleshna@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040529090047.15285.00000053@mb-m26.aol.com...
Quote: If I could see sketches to show me exactly how
to correct my strokes, it would be most useful.
No sketch; however, one swimming author makes the research summary rather
simple. Reaching and lifting the elbow for the hand scull causes shoulder
problems. The solution given was to be sure the the hand drops down
before you
pressure for the scull.
Gleshna - Multi-Thousandaire
DA LAKES:
Da Lake Tube: http://www.greatlakesurfing.com/images/Gallery/point.jpg
Da new Lake Movie: http://www.unsalted.tv/
Da Bears ???????
===========================================
I don't quite understand. In front crawl, during recovery, the elbow leaves
the water first, goes high and then the hand follows. The hand moves forward
parallel to the water surface, and enters the water before it is fully
extended, thumb first. (this is how my coach tought me a long time ago). Is
that more or less what you mean? Then I do it correctly.
I want to add that I feel the pain at the start of the push in the water.
I've discovered that it is at this moment that I must be careful not to lift
the shoulder toward the ear, but on the contrary to push it toward the
bottom of the pool. This helps, but it is difficult to remember. It is
enough one bad stroke and the pain is back. I cannot explain better, sorry
for my language limitations.
It is possible that the problem originates not in front crawl, but in
backstroke. I couldn't say, because both strokes are equally painful. In
backstroke, the arm makes a full semi-circle when going backwards, and
enters the water little finger first. When starting the push movement, is
when I feel the pain. Here too, experiment shows me that I can feel less
pain if I push the shoulder toward my nose when pushing water. This is
somehow unnatural and I must be very aware not to forget.
Could you translate my feelings into more accurate terms?
thank you for answering,
haim
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| Gleshna |
| Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 7:01 pm |
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Guest
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Quote: "Haim Guivon"
The hand moves forward
parallel to the water surface, and enters the water before it is fully
extended, thumb first. (this is how my coach tought me a long time ago). Is
that more or less what you mean?
I was not talking about the recovery. I was talking about the catch. That is
when your hand first enters the water. As I mentioned one author warns against
an improper catch. Also, I have had a physical therapist mention that an
improper catch in swimming causes shoulder problems.
If you push down with the arm fully extended then at least one physical
therapist believes you may have shoulder problems. If you lift your elbow
rather than drop your hand to start pulling/sculling then at least one author
suggests that you may have shoulder problems.
For the recovery, since I swim on my side (Total Immersion ) I use the let the
fingers slide up the side with a high elbow. I think this is the least problem
for my shoulders.
Gleshna - Multi-Thousandaire
DA LAKES:
Da Lake Tube: http://www.greatlakesurfing.com/images/Gallery/point.jpg
Da new Lake Movie: http://www.unsalted.tv/
Da Bears ??????? |
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| Martin W. Smith |
| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 12:22 am |
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"Haim Guivon" <arieh@search.com> wrote:
Quote:
"Martin W. Smith" <no.email@this.time> wrote in message
news:n9agb0han7ltcm79bfghf9qh2kb6086oqf@4ax.com...
"Haim Guivon" <arieh@search.com> wrote:
I've seen Larry Weisenthal's very learned explanation, and read the URL
he
recommended.
However, as a non-professional, I don't quite understand how to translate
the directives into practice. If I could see sketches to show me exactly
how
to correct my strokes, it would be most useful.
I swim for about one hour and a quarter of an hour every day, and I
switch
among all the styles (except the most strenous butterfly). The shoulder
pain
appeared when I started swimming again after a pause of two months.
I'll appreciate any guide, thank you.
What kind of stretching do you do for your shoulders?
=======================================
1) Holding hands behind back
2) Pressing on elbow with arm extended sideward before chest.
3) Lifting arms with hands clasped behind body.
4) Hands above head, and stretching upwards one after the other while
holding wrist with other hand. Same stretch upwards and sidewards (to the
hand's opposite direction).
All these are done before swimming. After swimming, several push-ups.
Add this one once a day, at least until you recover. Suppose your
right shoulder is the one in pain. Dangle a small towel over your left
shoulder from your left hand. Reach around behind your back with your
right hand and grab the end of the towel. Pull up on the towel with
your left hand as far as you can.
martin |
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| Haim Guivon |
| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 8:17 am |
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"Gleshna" <gleshna@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040530210121.09603.00000257@mb-m11.aol.com...
Quote: "Haim Guivon"
I was not talking about the recovery. I was talking about the catch.
That is
when your hand first enters the water. As I mentioned one author warns
against
an improper catch. Also, I have had a physical therapist mention that an
improper catch in swimming causes shoulder problems.
If you push down with the arm fully extended then at least one physical
therapist believes you may have shoulder problems. If you lift your elbow
rather than drop your hand to start pulling/sculling then at least one
author
suggests that you may have shoulder problems.
For the recovery, since I swim on my side (Total Immersion ) I use the let
the
fingers slide up the side with a high elbow. I think this is the least
problem
for my shoulders.
Gleshna - Multi-Thousandaire
DA LAKES:
Da Lake Tube: http://www.greatlakesurfing.com/images/Gallery/point.jpg
Da new Lake Movie: http://www.unsalted.tv/
Da Bears ???????
============================================
Got it. I think that's it. Moreover, when I lift the elbow, I also lift the
shoulder, and that was BAAD. Today I followed your advice, making a
deliberate effort to lower the elbow and shoulder, and rolling downwards the
pushing side of the body (which further helps to keep elbow and shoulder
low), and I already feel much better.
Thanks a lot,
haim
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| Haim Guivon |
| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 8:22 am |
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"Martin W. Smith" <no.email@this.time> wrote in message
news:tijlb0ler4lmnsefqts7hvnd61fbl7f11a@4ax.com...
Quote: "Haim Guivon" <arieh@search.com> wrote:
What kind of stretching do you do for your shoulders?
=======================================
1) Holding hands behind back
2) Pressing on elbow with arm extended sideward before chest.
3) Lifting arms with hands clasped behind body.
4) Hands above head, and stretching upwards one after the other while
holding wrist with other hand. Same stretch upwards and sidewards (to the
hand's opposite direction).
All these are done before swimming. After swimming, several push-ups.
Add this one once a day, at least until you recover. Suppose your
right shoulder is the one in pain. Dangle a small towel over your left
shoulder from your left hand. Reach around behind your back with your
right hand and grab the end of the towel. Pull up on the towel with
your left hand as far as you can.
martin
====================================================
I've already added it to my warming up. Thank you very much. It hurts at the
beginning, but then it feels better.
BTW, I've found some very good exercises in the web, and I do them every
day. It seems to help:
http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1996/02_96/loosli.htm
haim |
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| Martin W. Smith |
| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:14 am |
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"Haim Guivon" <arieh@search.com> wrote:
Quote:
"Martin W. Smith" <no.email@this.time> wrote in message
news:tijlb0ler4lmnsefqts7hvnd61fbl7f11a@4ax.com...
"Haim Guivon" <arieh@search.com> wrote:
What kind of stretching do you do for your shoulders?
=======================================
1) Holding hands behind back
2) Pressing on elbow with arm extended sideward before chest.
3) Lifting arms with hands clasped behind body.
4) Hands above head, and stretching upwards one after the other while
holding wrist with other hand. Same stretch upwards and sidewards (to the
hand's opposite direction).
All these are done before swimming. After swimming, several push-ups.
Add this one once a day, at least until you recover. Suppose your
right shoulder is the one in pain. Dangle a small towel over your left
shoulder from your left hand. Reach around behind your back with your
right hand and grab the end of the towel. Pull up on the towel with
your left hand as far as you can.
martin
====================================================
I've already added it to my warming up. Thank you very much. It hurts at the
beginning, but then it feels better.
It was actually recommended to me by a surgeon who specialized in back
problems. I had gone to him because of persistent shoulder pain of the
kind you describe. After using this stretch for a week, the pain
disappeared and has not returned. |
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| Ross Bogue |
| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:15 am |
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In article <20040530210121.09603.00000257@mb-m11.aol.com>,
gleshna@aol.com (Gleshna) wrote:
Quote: "Haim Guivon"
The hand moves forward
parallel to the water surface, and enters the water before it is fully
extended, thumb first. (this is how my coach tought me a long time ago). Is
that more or less what you mean?
I was not talking about the recovery. I was talking about the catch. That
is
when your hand first enters the water.
Well, that would be the "entry." I usually reserve "catch" for the
point where the arm/hand first grabs water and applies force. Some
swimmers descend directly to a catch after entry without stopping.
Others glide for a few milliseconds with the arm extended first.
Quote: As I mentioned one author warns against
an improper catch. Also, I have had a physical therapist mention that an
improper catch in swimming causes shoulder problems.
I fully agree with that therapist.
Quote: If you push down with the arm fully extended then at least one physical
therapist believes you may have shoulder problems.
I agree with that one also. Let the hand descend 8-10 inches, and swing
the elbow sideways a bit, before applying force.
Quote: If you lift your elbow
rather than drop your hand to start pulling/sculling then at least one author
suggests that you may have shoulder problems.
Well, you can't just drop your hand. Most human elbows don't bend that
direction. Your elbow has to swing a bit sideways at the same time.
(This is the "high-elbow catch" that's so often spoken of, and sometimes
confused with the "high-elbow recovery" that's also well spoken of.)
Quote: For the recovery, since I swim on my side (Total Immersion ) I use the let
the
fingers slide up the side with a high elbow. I think this is the least
problem
for my shoulders.
That would be a fingertip drill, aka "shark fin." Lots of coaches use
them, not just TI coaches, both to teach a high elbow recovery and to
encourage rotating enough to get the shoulder out of the water.
Ross |
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| Larry Weisenthal |
| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:21 pm |
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Quote: However, as a non-professional, I don't quite understand how to translate
the directives into practice. If I could see sketches to show me exactly how
to correct my strokes, it would be most useful.<<
A couple of years back, I video'd my older daughter doing "bad stroke,"
followed by
"good stroke" (shoulder friendly-wise) for all 4 strokes. I did this in
preparation for a presentation I made at a swimming conference. Now that I've
finally gotten decent video editing software, I'll try and digitize it, and
burn it into CDs (which I'd give away for free) and post the clips on my
website. Will doubtless take me some time, but, by and by, I should have them.
Send me a private e-mail in about a month, if you are interested. Shorten the
above e-mail address by leaving off the last 3 letters after the "dot" |
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| Larry Weisenthal |
| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:47 pm |
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Stroke modifications for sore shoulders -->
Basically, you want to avoid internal rotation (counter-clockwise, right and
clockwise, left) of the hand.
You want to recover (above the water) with your thumb forward of the pinky and
your palm facing your head. You want to enter the water pinky first and not
thumb first. You want to enter just a bit wider than is classic for
freestyle...more of a buttefly enter position. You want to have a bit of a
diagonal inward pull (similar to butterfly) and not a straight back pull (which
you have to have when your hand enters forward of the head rather than outwards
a little bit, as in butterfly. You want to avoid internally rotating the hand
as you descend into the catch. Maintain the slightly thumb forward of the
pinky position as you pull inward and backward. You want to let your hand
descend into the catch position before applying significant pulling force. You
want the pulling force to be backwards and not downwards (which forces the head
of the humerus upward, compressing the superior rotator cuff against the
acromion ("car port" boney part of the shoulder blade over the head of the
humerus). You don't want an exaggerated push back, as this causes a "wring
out" of the blood supply to the superior rotator cuff.
Say -- over and over and over -- "internal rotation is bad; external rotation
is good." |
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| Gleshna |
| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:40 am |
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If you are swimming flat, then I agree. However, consider if you are swimming
more on your sides.
Gleshna
Overheard at 2004 ESA Northeastern Regional Surf Contest:
"F%&*, I got beaten by a guy from the Great Lakes!" |
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| Gleshna |
| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:33 pm |
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Quote:
Well, you can't just drop your hand.
Gleshna:
Quote: If you are swimming flat, then I agree. However, consider if you are
swimming
more on your sides.
My response above is wrong.
However, let me again deal with the reaction, "you can't just drop your hand."
Actually, I move the hand downward for the catch and scull. I have no
intention of arguing over the angle of the word "downward."
Gleshna
Overheard at 2004 ESA Northeastern Regional Surf Contest:
"F%&*, I got beaten by a guy from the Great Lakes!" |
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