Stroke modifications for sore shoulders --

Basically, you want to avoid internal rotation (counter-clockwise, right
and
clockwise, left) of the hand.

You want to recover (above the water) with your thumb forward of the pinky
and
your palm facing your head. You want to enter the water pinky first and
not
thumb first.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

You want to enter just a bit wider than is classic for
freestyle...more of a buttefly enter position. You want to have a bit of
a
diagonal inward pull (similar to butterfly) and not a straight back pull
(which
you have to have when your hand enters forward of the head rather than
outwards
a little bit, as in butterfly. You want to avoid internally rotating the
hand
as you descend into the catch.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Maintain the slightly thumb forward of the
pinky position as you pull inward and backward.
------------------------------------------------------------------

You want to let your hand
descend into the catch position before applying significant pulling force.
You
want the pulling force to be backwards and not downwards (which forces the
head
of the humerus upward, compressing the superior rotator cuff against the
acromion ("car port" boney part of the shoulder blade over the head of the
humerus). You don't want an exaggerated push back, as this causes a
"wring
out" of the blood supply to the superior rotator cuff.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Say -- over and over and over -- "internal rotation is bad; external
rotation
is good."

====================================

In article <20040530210121.09603.00000257@mb-m11.aol.com>,
gleshna@aol.com (Gleshna) wrote:

"Haim Guivon"

The hand moves forward
parallel to the water surface, and enters the water before it is fully
extended, thumb first. (this is how my coach tought me a long time
ago). Is
that more or less what you mean?

I was not talking about the recovery. I was talking about the catch.
That
is
when your hand first enters the water.


Well, that would be the "entry." I usually reserve "catch" for the
point where the arm/hand first grabs water and applies force. Some
swimmers descend directly to a catch after entry without stopping.
Others glide for a few milliseconds with the arm extended first.


As I mentioned one author warns against
an improper catch. Also, I have had a physical therapist mention that
an
improper catch in swimming causes shoulder problems.


I fully agree with that therapist.


If you push down with the arm fully extended then at least one physical
therapist believes you may have shoulder problems.


I agree with that one also. Let the hand descend 8-10 inches, and swing
the elbow sideways a bit, before applying force.


If you lift your elbow
rather than drop your hand to start pulling/sculling then at least one
author
suggests that you may have shoulder problems.


Well, you can't just drop your hand. Most human elbows don't bend that
direction. Your elbow has to swing a bit sideways at the same time.

(This is the "high-elbow catch" that's so often spoken of, and sometimes
confused with the "high-elbow recovery" that's also well spoken of.)


For the recovery, since I swim on my side (Total Immersion ) I use the
let
the
fingers slide up the side with a high elbow. I think this is the least
problem
for my shoulders.


That would be a fingertip drill, aka "shark fin." Lots of coaches use
them, not just TI coaches, both to teach a high elbow recovery and to
encourage rotating enough to get the shoulder out of the water.



Ross
=============================================

Is that so? I was tought to enter the water thumb
first. Moreover, an old handbook I have (The
Handbook of Swimming, by David Wilkie & Kelvin
Juba) says so. ...

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:30:11 +0300, "Haim Guivon"
arieh@search.com> wrote:

Is that so? I was tought to enter the water thumb
first. Moreover, an old handbook I have (The
Handbook of Swimming, by David Wilkie & Kelvin
Juba) says so. ...

Most swim books, including the latest from
Maglischo and Colwin, show at least moderate
impingement during the crawl stroke, and some
elites swim with extreme impingement. It may be
faster, but unfortunately, some people can't swim
that way without injury.

http://www.donalfagan.com/html/shoulder.html


Donal Fagan AIA
Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com
(Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)
==============================================

However, let me again deal with the reaction, "you can't just drop your hand."

Actually, I move the hand downward for the catch and scull. I have no
intention of arguing over the angle of the word "downward."

Well, I don't get it. I thought that thumb down
and pinky up at entry would be maximum internal
rotation, like it can be seen in your page showing
a sequence of photos of Mark Spitzer,

and this is discouraged if one wants to avoid
shoulder impingement.

If palm (down) paralell to the surface of the
water means 180 degrees internal rotation, then
taking the palm up would mean no internal
rotation?

This would be a very awkward position!. Moreover,
what is "body perpendicular to the surface"? This
would mean standing up in the water!.

In a nutshell, swim coaches teach techniques which they feel maximize
performance.

But you must remember that, at the elite level, a 2% difference is huge,
while at the level of a fitness swimmer, 2% is trivial and simply isn't
worth the pain and risk of a long term injury.

Donal and I have discussed and explained all of this stuff at very great length
over the years. You can go to Google Groups and enter "runnswim" and
"shoulder" and/or "Donal" and "shoulder" and you'll have no trouble finding all
manner of very detailed explanations and discussions.

I have been battling swimmers shoulder for a couple of years and

Larry Weisenthal)

But you must remember that, at the elite level, a 2% difference is huge,
while at the level of a fitness swimmer, 2% is trivial

Please, I want to insert several notes and questions in the text
below.

Donal did a good job addressing your questions.
==========================================

In a nutshell, swim coaches teach techniques which they feel maximize
performance.

But you must remember that, at the elite level, a 2% difference is huge,
while
at the level of a fitness swimmer, 2% is trivial and simply isn't worth
the
pain and risk of a long term injury.

The most important "rule," to repeat, is to avoid internal rotation. With
external rotation, the vulnerable supraspinatus (superior rotator) tendon
is
rotated out from underneath the coracoacromial ligament and acromium,
which
form the "roof" of the "carport" which covers the rotator cuff. When you
internally rotate, in contrast, you place this tendon in the location
where
there is the least amount of room and the greatest amount of impingement.
Swimmer's shoulder is almost always an impingement injury and not an
overuse
injury.

Rotator cuff exercises are also helpful, in that they strengthen the
so-called
"active stabilizers," which are the rotator cuff muscles themselves. With
good
rotator muscle tone, the head of the humerus is held in place better and
is
less prone to migrate upward and produce impingement.

When I talked about entering a little wider and pulling in slightly
diagonally,
with the thumb forward (relative to the direction of travel) of the pinky,
I am
just describing how to maintain a position of external rotation throughout
the
stroke.

Donal and I have discussed and explained all of this stuff at very great
length
over the years. You can go to Google Groups and enter "runnswim" and
"shoulder" and/or "Donal" and "shoulder" and you'll have no trouble
finding all
manner of very detailed explanations and discussions.

I swim with a very small body rotation. In the website you mention in
another article, I see that the swimmer lies in the water with the Y
axis
perpendicular to the water surface during the pause stage. I don't. I
lie
with with the Y access almost parallel to the water surface, with a very
small body rotation during catch and start of push. In this position
(which
I am too old to want to change), how should the position of each hand be
to avoid internal rotation?
snip
Thanks,
haim

Haim, I used to swim like you (as far as lack of much rotation) until I
hurt
my neck in February of 2003. My doctor told me to start breathing
bilaterally instead of my usual 'just on the left side'. Not only did
that
strengthen my neck muscles, but it also made my body rotate more properly.
After a few days of trying this, it now seems natural as if I have been
doing it this way all my life. You can change and enjoy the change!

Pat in TX

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