 |
|
| Computers Forum Index » Computer Artificial Intelligence - Philosophy » brain for AI... |
|
Page 1 of 2 Goto page 1, 2 Next |
|
| Author |
Message |
| rscan at (no spam) nycap.rr.com... |
 Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:24 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
The brain, and especially the human brain, is the only thinking
machine that we know of that works. Some say that Artificial
Intelligence should base its investigations on the brain, should
attempt to emulate the brain. It seems reasonable that we should at
least look at the brain before we try to do so.
The brain is wholly a creature of the genome. The genome establishes a
structure that can accommodate itself to the impinging universe. The
genome does this because it survived. There is no other reason. The
genome has lived since the first cell.
The essential brain lies in the motor program generators. These are
the neural circuits established by the genome to feed and water the
organism in an expected, but not particularly friendly, universe. All
motor acts above the simplest reflex actions originate in the motor
program generators. When we say all, we mean ALL. Without a generator
in action, the organism is nothing but a lump of clay. It is common to
speak of learning an activity, but this is a mistaken view. Learning
is actually modifying. The genome constructs the circuitry that
produces walking; the circuitry may be modified to dance. Without the
walking circuitry as a base, there is nothing.
The generators are centered in the spinal cord and the hindbrain.
There are centers for breathing, posture, locomotion, orienting,
reaching, grasping, manipulating, licking, chewing, swallowing, and
vocalization. This circuitry is highly conserved. It existed before
the forebrain. The notion of a center is a simplification. The
circuitry that leads to the generator, and the circuitry that leads
from the generator to the motor neurons is also set up by the genome.
In humans, completion of the neural circuitry is delayed in some cases
until it is no longer obviously of genomic origin. This is
particularly the case with vocalization. The vocalization circuitry is
first activated at about one year when we hear the infant sounding
individual phonemes. The pre-generator circuitry is modified to
produce words and sentences. The post-generator circuitry is modified
to produce an accent.
The penultimate step of a motor program is to pass through the
thalamus on its way to the motor cortex. Here it comes under the
scrutiny of the thalamic reticular nucleus. The TRN is the repository
of bad outcomes. Every time a motor program is activated under
particular conditions and there is a bad outcome, that result is
recorded in the synapses of the TRN. If the present motor program and
the present conditions match that record, the synapses are activated,
the TRN is turned on, and the motor program is halted. A halted motor
program simply disappears.
Sensory input can also be halted by the thalamic reticular nucleus.
When the neocortex is released from the tyranny of the rush of sensory
input, it is enabled to freely associate. This is dreaming,
associating, reverie.
A succession of halted motor programs, followed by a motor program
that is not halted, is called thinking and deciding.
Ray |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| casey... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:02 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Oct 27, 11:24 am, "rs... at (no spam) nycap.rr.com" <rs... at (no spam) nycap.rr.com> wrote:
Quote:
Learning is actually modifying. The genome constructs the
circuitry that produces walking; the circuitry may be
modified to dance. Without the walking circuitry as a base,
there is nothing.
This seems to be in accord with the book I recently read
by Eric Kandel "In Search of Memory". Essentially there is
a default set of wiring that enables the animal to act in
a meaningful way in a general environment and yet be able
to adapt its wiring for a particular environment.
Learning selects among a large repertoire of *preexisting
connections* and alters the strength of those connections.
A rat brain starts with more default circuits to be modified
than an Aplysia brain. Rats for example can form maps and
humans can form episodic memories. Of course the actual maps
or episodic memories depends on experience (learning).
John |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Don Stockbauer... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:48 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Oct 27, 5:02 am, casey <jgkjca... at (no spam) yahoo.com.au> wrote:
Quote: On Oct 27, 11:24 am, "rs... at (no spam) nycap.rr.com" <rs... at (no spam) nycap.rr.com> wrote:
Learning is actually modifying. The genome constructs the
circuitry that produces walking; the circuitry may be
modified to dance. Without the walking circuitry as a base,
there is nothing.
This seems to be in accord with the book I recently read
by Eric Kandel "In Search of Memory". Essentially there is
a default set of wiring that enables the animal to act in
a meaningful way in a general environment and yet be able
to adapt its wiring for a particular environment.
Learning selects among a large repertoire of *preexisting
connections* and alters the strength of those connections.
A rat brain starts with more default circuits to be modified
than an Aplysia brain. Rats for example can form maps and
humans can form episodic memories. Of course the actual maps
or episodic memories depends on experience (learning).
John
Has anyone here heard of this "Global Brain" thingy? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| rscan at (no spam) nycap.rr.com... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:50 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
The thalamic reticular nucleus is a thin nucleus that is wrapped about
the thalamus like a blanket. All the axons that pass from the thalamus
to the cortex, and from the cortex to the thalamus must pass through
this nucleus. On the way, they give off branches that innervate the
TRN. The output of the thalamic reticular nucleus is wholly
inhibitory. It causes nothing to happen, it can only stop things from
happening.
Every time a bad outcome occurs, the present motor program, together
with the present sensory condition is recorded in the synapses of the
thalamic reticular nucleus. The TRN is the great repository of the
failures in the life history of the organism. When a motor program and
the current condition of the world match the recorded bad outcome, the
motor program is halted and dissipates.
The life history of the organism is thus seen as a history of avoided
bad outcomes.
Motor programs from the basal ganglia and the cerebellum enter the
thalamus through the VA-VL complex (the ventral anterior and ventral
lateral nuclei). Sensory energy enters through the lateral geniculate
body (visual-eye), the medial geniculate body (auditory-ear), and the
ventral posterolateral-ventral posteromedial nuclei (somatic-body).
Even as motor programs can be intercepted by the thalamic reticular
nucleus, so can sensory energy be intercepted by the TRN. Sensory
energy is periodically interrupted for milliseconds to allow for extra
neural activity in the neocortex as the organism proceeds. In times of
great danger, the TRN is inhibited and sensory energy flows without
pause. We experience this as, “time slows down”.
Sensory energy can be halted for extended periods. If accompanied by
sleep, this is called dreaming. If the organism is awake, it is called
day-dreaming. reverie, even thinking.
Ray |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| rscan at (no spam) nycap.rr.com... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:10 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Oct 28, 7:48 am, Don Stockbauer <don.stockba... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
Has anyone here heard of this "Global Brain" thingy?- Hide quoted text -
A most interesting concept, but not particularly amenable to scientic
investigation. My own interest lies in the organism, abroad in the
world, driven by a neural system.
Ray |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Don Stockbauer... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:08 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Oct 28, 9:10 am, "rs... at (no spam) nycap.rr.com" <rs... at (no spam) nycap.rr.com> wrote:
Quote: On Oct 28, 7:48 am, Don Stockbauer <don.stockba... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone here heard of this "Global Brain" thingy?- Hide quoted text -
A most interesting concept, but not particularly amenable to scientic
investigation. My own interest lies in the organism, abroad in the
world, driven by a neural system.
Ray
You're very correct; it's not particularly amenable to scientific
investigation. However, a few people do deliriously believe in it and
promote it, for they feel that the payoff is beyond all expectations,
since self-awareness creates sentience and intelligence. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| N... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:46 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On 28 Oct, 16:08, Don Stockbauer <don.stockba... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On Oct 28, 9:10 am, "rs... at (no spam) nycap.rr.com" <rs... at (no spam) nycap.rr.com> wrote:
On Oct 28, 7:48 am, Don Stockbauer <don.stockba... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone here heard of this "Global Brain" thingy?- Hide quoted text -
A most interesting concept, but not particularly amenable to scientic
investigation. My own interest lies in the organism, abroad in the
world, driven by a neural system.
Ray
You're very correct; it's not particularly amenable to scientific
investigation. However, a few people do deliriously believe in it and
promote it, for they feel that the payoff is beyond all expectations,
since self-awareness creates sentience and intelligence.
that'll be the system |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| N... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:36 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Don Stockbauer... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:58 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Oct 28, 7:36 pm, N <n.m.ke... at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
Quote: well the AI brain stuff will need filling with artificial facts like,
identity and reasons for existance perhaps? etc lol
Those will be emergent phenomena. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| casey... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:48 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Oct 29, 12:50 am, "rs... at (no spam) nycap.rr.com" <rs... at (no spam) nycap.rr.com> wrote:
Quote: ...
Every time a bad outcome occurs, the present motor program, together
with the present sensory condition is recorded in the synapses of the
thalamic reticular nucleus. The TRN is the great repository of the
failures in the life history of the organism. When a motor program and
the current condition of the world match the recorded bad outcome, the
motor program is halted and dissipates.
...
It seems to me none of what you have written is useful in terms
of building any kind brain for AI?
JC |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| casey... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:50 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Oct 29, 2:58 pm, Don Stockbauer <don.stockba... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: On Oct 28, 7:36 pm, N <n.m.ke... at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
well the AI brain stuff will need filling with artificial facts like,
identity and reasons for existance perhaps? etc lol
Those will be emergent phenomena.
The answer to everything, it will all emerge. Do you have anything
new to say about how social systems self organize?
JC |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| N... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:17 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On 29 Oct, 04:50, casey <jgkjca... at (no spam) yahoo.com.au> wrote:
Quote: On Oct 29, 2:58 pm, Don Stockbauer <don.stockba... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 28, 7:36 pm, N <n.m.ke... at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
well the AI brain stuff will need filling with artificial facts like,
identity and reasons for existance perhaps? etc lol
Those will be emergent phenomena.
The answer to everything, it will all emerge. Do you have anything
new to say about how social systems self organize?
JC
social systems that self organise? how to 'stack' robots...that kind
of thing? or more like how they function together? or self repairing,
self sustaining systems like programmes perhaps? as far as I
understand, anything that prevents repair from damage incidental or
deliberate harm is inadequate, thats if the object of the machinery is
to fulfill some kind of special purposes.
A car is a car...a box on wheels, its purpose is to transport. The
damage to its surface texture isnt necessarily harmful to its purpose,
although damage to the surface of 'some' machines such as to shields
and to armour plate is. This would be like a imagine...some highly
specilized design? so self repair of some surfaces is really
important.
And then say that the purpose of the machine is to run a programme,
and the transportation is essential, but if it doesnt get to its
destination, the programme inside can still function and keeps
running. Then the programme will have to 'self repair' or consider
alternative ways to complete its routine.
An artificial social systems could function like...either high
individuation where each robot is self sustaining or specialized, only
occassionally going in for a recharge for example 90% independent, or
has a high dependency or totally shared and can never function without
continued checks, 10% independency.
Adaptability is the other thing that comes into my mind, large mutual
dependent systems run more slowly, although I imagine have greater
force. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Don Stockbauer... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:45 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Oct 28, 11:50 pm, casey <jgkjca... at (no spam) yahoo.com.au> wrote:
Quote: On Oct 29, 2:58 pm, Don Stockbauer <don.stockba... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 28, 7:36 pm, N <n.m.ke... at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
well the AI brain stuff will need filling with artificial facts like,
identity and reasons for existance perhaps? etc lol
Those will be emergent phenomena.
The answer to everything, it will all emerge. Do you have anything
new to say about how social systems self organize?
Yes, I do, but the self-organization of social systems is at such a
high level it's unverifiable by myself, only verifiable by the social
systems themselves, and any such speculation only serves to further
playing little games here in Usenet. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| J.A. Legris... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:11 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Oct 29, 7:17 am, N <n.m.ke... at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
Quote: On 29 Oct, 04:50, casey <jgkjca... at (no spam) yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Oct 29, 2:58 pm, Don Stockbauer <don.stockba... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 28, 7:36 pm, N <n.m.ke... at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
well the AI brain stuff will need filling with artificial facts like,
identity and reasons for existance perhaps? etc lol
Those will be emergent phenomena.
The answer to everything, it will all emerge. Do you have anything
new to say about how social systems self organize?
JC
social systems that self organise? how to 'stack' robots...that kind
of thing? or more like how they function together? or self repairing,
self sustaining systems like programmes perhaps? as far as I
understand, anything that prevents repair from damage incidental or
deliberate harm is inadequate, thats if the object of the machinery is
to fulfill some kind of special purposes.
A car is a car...a box on wheels, its purpose is to transport. The
damage to its surface texture isnt necessarily harmful to its purpose,
although damage to the surface of 'some' machines such as to shields
and to armour plate is. This would be like a imagine...some highly
specilized design? so self repair of some surfaces is really
important.
And then say that the purpose of the machine is to run a programme,
and the transportation is essential, but if it doesnt get to its
destination, the programme inside can still function and keeps
running. Then the programme will have to 'self repair' or consider
alternative ways to complete its routine.
An artificial social systems could function like...either high
individuation where each robot is self sustaining or specialized, only
occassionally going in for a recharge for example 90% independent, or
has a high dependency or totally shared and can never function without
continued checks, 10% independency.
Adaptability is the other thing that comes into my mind, large mutual
dependent systems run more slowly, although I imagine have greater
force.
You're getting warmer.
Self-organization, -assembly, -maintenance and -regeneration are so
basic to living organisms that they can be taken as defining
attributes - an artificial system exhibiting analogous competence
would surely qualify as "intelligent". Deep and thorough dependence on
chemistry and physics, i.e. properties of materials, is implicit,
which suggests that the notion of a purely computational
"intelligence" is a contradiction in terms.
--
Joe |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| N... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:53 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On 29 Oct, 14:11, "J.A. Legris" <jaleg... at (no spam) sympatico.ca> wrote:
Quote: On Oct 29, 7:17 am, N <n.m.ke... at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
On 29 Oct, 04:50, casey <jgkjca... at (no spam) yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Oct 29, 2:58 pm, Don Stockbauer <don.stockba... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 28, 7:36 pm, N <n.m.ke... at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
well the AI brain stuff will need filling with artificial facts like,
identity and reasons for existance perhaps? etc lol
Those will be emergent phenomena.
The answer to everything, it will all emerge. Do you have anything
new to say about how social systems self organize?
JC
social systems that self organise? how to 'stack' robots...that kind
of thing? or more like how they function together? or self repairing,
self sustaining systems like programmes perhaps? as far as I
understand, anything that prevents repair from damage incidental or
deliberate harm is inadequate, thats if the object of the machinery is
to fulfill some kind of special purposes.
A car is a car...a box on wheels, its purpose is to transport. The
damage to its surface texture isnt necessarily harmful to its purpose,
although damage to the surface of 'some' machines such as to shields
and to armour plate is. This would be like a imagine...some highly
specilized design? so self repair of some surfaces is really
important.
And then say that the purpose of the machine is to run a programme,
and the transportation is essential, but if it doesnt get to its
destination, the programme inside can still function and keeps
running. Then the programme will have to 'self repair' or consider
alternative ways to complete its routine.
An artificial social systems could function like...either high
individuation where each robot is self sustaining or specialized, only
occassionally going in for a recharge for example 90% independent, or
has a high dependency or totally shared and can never function without
continued checks, 10% independency.
Adaptability is the other thing that comes into my mind, large mutual
dependent systems run more slowly, although I imagine have greater
force.
You're getting warmer.
Self-organization, -assembly, -maintenance and -regeneration are so
basic to living organisms that they can be taken as defining
attributes - an artificial system exhibiting analogous competence
would surely qualify as "intelligent". Deep and thorough dependence on
chemistry and physics, i.e. properties of materials, is implicit,
which suggests that the notion of a purely computational
"intelligence" is a contradiction in terms.
--
Joe- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
any problems with your old mysterious 'stalking donkey' Joe? and does
it retrieve what it wants? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT
The time now is Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:27 pm
|
|