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Guest
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:10 am
 
In an earlier posting I implied that Rexx might be obscure in regards
to programming mindshare. I've done an informal study based on Google
searches for 'x computer language'. The results:

x (K)
------- ------
BASIC 34,200 (could have some false positives, but still huge
mindshare)
C 32,000
Java 8,520
PHP 6,390
Forth 5,400 (false positives?)
C++ 3,570
Perl 2,260
Python 1,130
Pascal 947
ForTran 832
ADA 760
LISP 747
Ruby 741
C# 724
Cobol 620
TCL 560
SmallTalk 396
AWK 241
APL 210
Rexx 129
Simula 119
PL/I 55
Snobol 17


Having noted the above, I'll add a quote from "Thinking in Java" by
Bruce Eckel:

"Speaking at one of my "Intermediate/Advanced Java Seminars," Allen
Holub asserted that the two most commonly-used languages are Rexx and
COBOL, in that order."

I gather he's referring to IBM mainframe land of TSO, MVS, VM/CMS, VSE,
etc. However, these systems in many (most) areas are in the decline.
Though I'm sure Google searches are skewed against the old-time IBM
system languages.

So the question is:

How best to ensure Rexx's long-term mainstream survival? And on what
platforms? Different organizations have varying needs.

-- Warren Van Wyck
member RexxLA
 
ian
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:10 am
 
WVanWyck@gmail.com wrote:

Quote:
In an earlier posting I implied that Rexx might be obscure in regards
to programming mindshare. I've done an informal study based on Google
searches for 'x computer language'. The results:

x (K)
------- ------
BASIC 34,200 (could have some false positives, but still huge
mindshare)
C 32,000
Java 8,520
PHP 6,390
Forth 5,400 (false positives?)
C++ 3,570
Perl 2,260
Python 1,130
Pascal 947
ForTran 832
ADA 760
LISP 747
Ruby 741
C# 724
Cobol 620
TCL 560
SmallTalk 396
AWK 241
APL 210
Rexx 129
Simula 119
PL/I 55
Snobol 17


Having noted the above, I'll add a quote from "Thinking in Java" by
Bruce Eckel:

"Speaking at one of my "Intermediate/Advanced Java Seminars," Allen
Holub asserted that the two most commonly-used languages are Rexx and
COBOL, in that order."

I gather he's referring to IBM mainframe land of TSO, MVS, VM/CMS, VSE,
etc. However, these systems in many (most) areas are in the decline.
Though I'm sure Google searches are skewed against the old-time IBM
system languages.

So the question is:

How best to ensure Rexx's long-term mainstream survival? And on what
platforms? Different organizations have varying needs.

-- Warren Van Wyck
member RexxLA



Its not just mainframe, but it is fairly IBM-centric, I think. I use it
for one-man one-off tasks, where nobody cares what language I use, but
few of the poeple where I work know it, and many have not even heard of
it, and its a technical shop, at that.

There is already a Netrexx, though I must say that it feels much too
like 'translated java' for me to happily use it. I would like to see a
Rexx.Net version, as I feel that that platform might allow more of the
rexx syntax to survive.

Anyway, lbelow I list some other sources, to supplement yours.

Ian


TIOBE Programming Community Index for April 2005 from:
http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

Programming Language / Ratings
1 C 18.630% +0.88% A
2 Java 16.981% -7.26% A
3 Perl 10.197% +2.43% A
4 C++ 10.191% -5.80% A
5 PHP 8.724% -1.04% A
6 (Visual) Basic 6.789% -1.19% A
7 Delphi/Kylix 3.682% +2.86% A
8 SQL 3.491% +0.52% A
9 C# 2.820% +0.68% A
10 Python 2.697% +1.69% A
11 JavaScript 1.642% -0.14% A
12 SAS 1.354% +0.69% A
13 Fortran 1.055% +0.55% A-
14 COBOL 0.987% +0.34% A
15 Lisp 0.814% +0.37% A--
16 ABAP 0.716% +0.54% A
17 IDL 0.681% +0.36% B
18 Ada 0.637% +0.20% B
19 Pascal 0.635% +0.10% B
20 Awk 0.479% +0.13%
21 Prolog 0.455%
22 MATLAB 0.424%
23 Scheme 0.400%
24 RPG 0.388%
25 ColdFusion 0.384%
26 Felix 0.378%
27 VB.NET 0.364%
28 ActionScript 0.327%
29 Postscript 0.327%
30 D 0.326%
31 Bash 0.302%
32 Ruby 0.297%
33 Tcl/Tk 0.280%
34 Logo 0.243%
35 Forth 0.235%
36 Icon 0.182%
37 S-Lang 0.180%
38 REXX 0.166%
39 LabView 0.152%
40 VBScript 0.128%
41 Euphoria 0.107%
42 Smalltalk 0.102%
43 Visual FoxPro 0.094%
44 ML 0.091%
45 Csh 0.082%
46 Clipper 0.081%
47 Bourne Shell 0.081%
48 OCaml 0.081%
49 Lingo 0.075%
50 Natural 0.068%


and

from Java Deleloper's Journal (March).



Are There More Java Jobs Than .NET Jobs?
US Job Market for Developers (Informally) Examined
March 7, 2005

Summary
"I don't view this informal querying of a job aggregator to be the
end-all absolute truth, nor do I really view it as a scientifically
sound study," writes Brandon Harper as he makes public the results of
an job-market survey using data from indeed.com (an aggregator for job
sites). "Mostly I found it interesting that I was able to search a
large percentage of the jobs available in the US and wanted to compare
some various technology related keywords."

By Brandon Harper

I don't view this informal querying of a job aggregator to be the
end-all absolute truth, nor do I really view it as a scientifically
sound study, but I wanted just to make public last week the results of
an job-market survey I compiled recently using data from indeed.com
(an aggregator for job sites).

I found it interesting that I was able to search a large percentage of
the jobs available in the US and wanted to compare some various
technology related keywords.

The results, arranged by programming languages and platform
architectures, were as follows:

1. Java (-barista -coffee) 53,618
2. .NET 47,651
3. C++ 35,322
4. Perl 19,432
5. Visual Basic (or vb -visual basic and -visualbasic) 18,508
6. C# 14,319
7. ASP (asp -asp.net -.net) 12,100
8. C programmer (and c developer -programmer) 11,711
9. Cobol 6,713
10. Flash 6,353
11. ASP.NET (-asp) 5,644
12. PHP 4,194
13. ColdFusion (and cold fusion -coldfusion) 3,360
14. Delphi 1,122

Here too is a set of results arranged by OS:

1. Windows (-glass -frame -sunroom -sunroof -tint -replacement
-retrofit) 87,790
2. Unix 63,524
3. Linux 24,193
4. Solaris 19,263
5. AIX 9,291
6. Hpux (and hp-ux -hpux) 5,134
7. Irix 540
8. FreeBSD 433
9. SCO 414

There are more Linux jobs open now than Solaris jobs. I suppose
there's a reason Sun is working hard to try and gain back customers
that are bleeding off to Linux based solutions. Though it's certainly
cost-effective to take the Linux & Intel path, there will always be a
market for 'big iron' in one way or another think despite its
shrinkage in the last few years.
 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:11 pm
 
In <1113960181.745091.62530@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, on
04/19/2005
at 06:23 PM, WVanWyck@gmail.com said:

Quote:
In an earlier posting I implied that Rexx might be obscure in regards
to programming mindshare. I've done an informal study based on
Google searches for 'x computer language'. The results:

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org
 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:11 pm
 
In <1113960181.745091.62530@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, on
04/19/2005
at 06:23 PM, WVanWyck@gmail.com said:

Quote:
I gather he's referring to IBM mainframe land of TSO, MVS, VM/CMS,
VSE, etc.

Don't forget AREXX. Also, there are still a lot of us OS/2 users who
would tend to use OREXX or Regina on Linux.

Quote:
How best to ensure Rexx's long-term mainstream survival? And on
what platforms? Different organizations have varying needs.

I don't know of any way to get a language breakdown for the shops that
are quietly coding. However, I suspect that the long term prospects
for REXX will depend on adding support for regular expressions; while
parse is nice in many ways, it isn't competitive on its own.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org
 
Mickey
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:10 pm
 
WVanWyck@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
I gather he's referring to IBM mainframe land of TSO, MVS, VM/CMS,
VSE,
etc. However, these systems in many (most) areas are in the decline.

Can't begin to agree with this. The role of the mainframe has changed,
but it is hardly in decline. Were this actually the case, the numberof
job offers I get would be going down, not up.

Mickey
 
Wolfgang Riedel
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:11 pm
 
"Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" wrote:
Quote:

snip
I don't know of any way to get a language breakdown for the shops that
are quietly coding. However, I suspect that the long term prospects
for REXX will depend on adding support for regular expressions; while
parse is nice in many ways, it isn't competitive on its own.

what about RexxRE (Patrick TJ McPhee)?


Wolfgang
 
Warren Van Wyck
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:12 pm
 
Hi,

I'm sure this varies by 'industry'. In higher education the following
is a common occurrence (as I view the news):


"2003 Financial applications to migrate to Oracle

Remaining applications and uses to be replaced by new technologies

Mainframe to be retired

"Broad brush" computing trends:

60's - growth of mainframe computing
70's - growth of minicomputers
80's - growth of microcomputers
90's - growth of network and web
00's - application maturity

Prepared by: Mainframe Retirement Team and Stanford IT staff, current
and past"

And thousands of COBOL and Rexx program with it.

FWIW.

Warren



Mickey wrote:
Quote:
WVanWyck@gmail.com wrote:

I gather he's referring to IBM mainframe land of TSO, MVS, VM/CMS,

VSE,

etc. However, these systems in many (most) areas are in the decline.


Can't begin to agree with this. The role of the mainframe has changed,
but it is hardly in decline. Were this actually the case, the numberof
job offers I get would be going down, not up.

Mickey

 
Mickey
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:12 pm
 
Warren Van Wyck wrote:
Quote:
Hi,

I'm sure this varies by 'industry'. In higher education the
following
is a common occurrence (as I view the news):


"2003 Financial applications to migrate to Oracle

Remaining applications and uses to be replaced by new technologies

Mainframe to be retired

"Broad brush" computing trends:

60's - growth of mainframe computing
70's - growth of minicomputers
80's - growth of microcomputers
90's - growth of network and web
00's - application maturity

Prepared by: Mainframe Retirement Team and Stanford IT staff, current

and past"

And thousands of COBOL and Rexx program with it.

To be replaced by other COBOL and Rexx programs. The mainframe is now
being used more as a data repository and less as a data presentation
platform, but being used in any case. I remember someone telling me 20
years ago that the mainframe was dying. My response then is the same as
it would be now.... so is the sun.

Mickey
 
ian
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:10 am
 
Mickey wrote:
Quote:
WVanWyck@gmail.com wrote:

I gather he's referring to IBM mainframe land of TSO, MVS, VM/CMS,

VSE,

etc. However, these systems in many (most) areas are in the decline.


Can't begin to agree with this. The role of the mainframe has changed,
but it is hardly in decline. Were this actually the case, the numberof
job offers I get would be going down, not up.

Mickey

The rates I have seen on, for example, dice.com for Cobol/CICS etc,
appear pretty low - is that just some low-balling, or have contractiing
rates for mainframe jobs held up?


Ian
 
adrian suri
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:06 pm
 
[snip..] Object REXX (but that
latter IDE is no longer available).

This is not strictly true, while IBM did not hand over the IDE code with
OORexx they did hand the oorexx developers the run time code, is it not
possible to buid a new IDE from the runtime code??????

adrain
 
Warren Van Wyck
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:06 pm
 
Mickey wrote:

Quote:

To be replaced by other COBOL and Rexx programs. The mainframe is now
being used more as a data repository and less as a data presentation
platform, but being used in any case. I remember someone telling me 20
years ago that the mainframe was dying. My response then is the same as
it would be now.... so is the sun.

Mickey


SUN hasn't been going really good lately ... ;-)

-- Warren
 
Mickey
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:06 pm
 
ian wrote:
Quote:
Mickey wrote:
WVanWyck@gmail.com wrote:

I gather he's referring to IBM mainframe land of TSO, MVS, VM/CMS,

VSE,

etc. However, these systems in many (most) areas are in the
decline.


Can't begin to agree with this. The role of the mainframe has
changed,
but it is hardly in decline. Were this actually the case, the
numberof
job offers I get would be going down, not up.

Mickey

The rates I have seen on, for example, dice.com for Cobol/CICS etc,
appear pretty low - is that just some low-balling, or have
contractiing
rates for mainframe jobs held up?

Perspective is everything here. If one is judging by rates that were
available in the late 90s, then rates are down. Then again, rates in
the late 90s where grossly overblown due to the Y2K event. Top end
coders can still annex $50-$75/hr.

Mickey
 
Jeff Glatt
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:06 pm
 
Quote:
adrian suri <asurisuri.remove@tele2.se
[snip..] Object REXX (but that
latter IDE is no longer available).

is it not possible to buid a new IDE from the runtime code??????

Not unless someone is very experienced at disassembling lots of Intel code and
then creating C code from it. (I doubt that anyone would want to maintain an
IDE in Intel assembly)
 
ian
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:05 am
 
Mickey wrote:
Quote:
ian wrote:

Mickey wrote:

WVanWyck@gmail.com wrote:


I gather he's referring to IBM mainframe land of TSO, MVS, VM/CMS,

VSE,


etc. However, these systems in many (most) areas are in the

decline.


Can't begin to agree with this. The role of the mainframe has

changed,

but it is hardly in decline. Were this actually the case, the

numberof

job offers I get would be going down, not up.

Mickey

The rates I have seen on, for example, dice.com for Cobol/CICS etc,
appear pretty low - is that just some low-balling, or have

contractiing

rates for mainframe jobs held up?


Perspective is everything here. If one is judging by rates that were
available in the late 90s, then rates are down. Then again, rates in
the late 90s where grossly overblown due to the Y2K event. Top end
coders can still annex $50-$75/hr.

Mickey

Nice to know, if web developemnt gets too tedious - thanks.
 
Mickey
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:06 pm
 
ian wrote:
Quote:
Mickey wrote:
ian wrote:

Mickey wrote:

WVanWyck@gmail.com wrote:


I gather he's referring to IBM mainframe land of TSO, MVS,
VM/CMS,

VSE,


etc. However, these systems in many (most) areas are in the

decline.


Can't begin to agree with this. The role of the mainframe has

changed,

but it is hardly in decline. Were this actually the case, the

numberof

job offers I get would be going down, not up.

Mickey

The rates I have seen on, for example, dice.com for Cobol/CICS etc,
appear pretty low - is that just some low-balling, or have

contractiing

rates for mainframe jobs held up?


Perspective is everything here. If one is judging by rates that
were
available in the late 90s, then rates are down. Then again, rates
in
the late 90s where grossly overblown due to the Y2K event. Top end
coders can still annex $50-$75/hr.

Mickey

Nice to know, if web developemnt gets too tedious - thanks.

Funny thing of late. In the good old days (that being the mid to late
90s), I was always hired to do some sort of COBOL or BAL programming,
and wound up coding Rexx because of my ability to make tools that
improved productivity for all the other coders. I never really saw any
job reqs that were targeting Rexx. Now, these last 2 years, I see them
constantly. One of the big reasons for this is the fact that many 3rd
party vendor packages now come ready to speak Rexx. AFOPER or OP/MVS
are 2 good examples. I also get a lot of work writing hooks out of
either CA7 or Endevor. From my view point, things are only getting
better :)

Mickey
 
 
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